Power rebalance

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Per
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Power rebalance

Post by Per » 15 Jan 2012, 22:31

Currently, power income is determined by how many oil derricks you build on. Building an oil derrick is not a strategic investment - it is simply stupid not to do it, since oil derricks are almost free. Then you build as many power generators as you need to match. That is also not a strategic investment, since power generators are almost almost free.

I want to introduce strategy into power.

Another point. For low oil games, currently, controlling space is perhaps the single most important variable in the game. While it should be important, it has become, I think, too dominating. While a race for derricks should be a very viable strategy, it should come with a risk of over-extending oneself. People currently build on every oil derrick, even if they cannot be defended, simply because losing it does not mean the loss of any investment. "Rush" now seems to mean merely "rushing for oil", not rushing the enemy's base.

This is how I think it should change: The HQ is cheap to build, and gives you a basic income. (From its miniature nuclear reactor, or something like that.) Oil derricks are expensive to build. The power generator is very expensive to build, but gives lots of income compared to HQ (if you have oil derricks for it). Players should start with far less power than now.

Some building needs an early defensive role, which cannot easily be used offensively. The HQ is the best fit, since you can only build one. And we need to give some competing abilities that make it useful outside it defensive role and worth keeping in your base (as opposed to putting it in the battlefield).

I would suggest a choice of three abilities available as buttons when you click on it, with a shared cooldown timer: 1) A defensive ability (I am thinking, "Rally base workers") that allows you to put tough, slow, temporary cyborgs that time out rather quickly at a point near any allied HQ where you click. 2) Scan ("Send UAV reconnaissance"?) that gives vision for a very short period of time of particular place on the map, like in Starcraft. 3) Boost power income from HQ ("Overcharge reactor"?), so much that it is tempting to use this instead of being able to use the two others.

The goal is that there should be many different initial build orders to choose from, each with different advantages and disadvantages, none obviously better in all situations. For example, HQ -> Factory -> Lab should be pretty safe and economical, while Power gen -> Oil -> HQ is greedy, and Factory-> HQ -> Lab allows some early game aggression on smaller maps.

Or something along those lines.

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Re: Power rebalance

Post by Reg312 » 15 Jan 2012, 23:24

Expanding should have price.
Agreed with all, except implementation.
Think better leave CC as it is and just increase price of Oil Derrick to 25$
Increase price of power module also might be good
there is many ways to solve problem with "derrick race", for example: limit number of aviable derricks by number of built-up power generators.

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Re: Power rebalance

Post by Wolftrak » 16 Jan 2012, 01:04

Per wrote:Currently, power income is determined by how many oil derricks you build on. Building an oil derrick is not a strategic investment - it is simply stupid not to do it, since oil derricks are almost free. Then you build as many power generators as you need to match. That is also not a strategic investment, since power generators are almost almost free.
This is not really a problem, it's part of the Warzone DNA IMO. As such, changing it would result in a whole new (better,I hope) Warzone. I think that the game should evolve. It

StarCraft has this part of the game solved really well with the famous "Should I expand, acquire more minerals and spread my forces thinner?" question.

My opinion is that we need to add some incentive for the player to defend its oil wells which should be harder to acquire. Maybe add a requirement for the generator to be near the oil wells? This would make draining random oil wells on the map. Also, this would work best if the oil wells are grouped.
Per wrote:I would suggest a choice of three abilities available as buttons when you click on it, with a shared cooldown timer: 1) A defensive ability (I am thinking, "Rally base workers") that allows you to put tough, slow, temporary cyborgs that time out rather quickly at a point near any allied HQ where you click. 2) Scan ("Send UAV reconnaissance"?) that gives vision for a very short period of time of particular place on the map, like in Starcraft. 3) Boost power income from HQ ("Overcharge reactor"?), so much that it is tempting to use this instead of being able to use the two others.
I like your point about the powers. It doesn't add a lot of overhead, but brings the strategy at a higher level.

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Re: Power rebalance

Post by aubergine » 16 Jan 2012, 03:59

I think needing to have enough power gens to power a derrik before you can build a derrik is a good idea.

Will also help newbies (like me!) learn quicker that building derriks first is waste of time, there are more important buildings to make first (eg. factory, research, CC, power gens, etc.).

EDIT: BTW, while starcraft might be great, WZ shouldn't turn in to starcraft.
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Re: Power rebalance

Post by effigy » 18 Jan 2012, 02:40

aubergine wrote:...

Will also help newbies (like me!) learn quicker that building derriks first is waste of time, there are more important buildings to make first (eg. factory, research, CC, power gens, etc.)....
Usually, this is true. However, have you ever played in a game where your enemy sent a truck to your base and built on 1/2 your base oil? Food for thought :)
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Power rebalance

Post by Cyp » 18 Jan 2012, 02:54

effigy wrote:
aubergine wrote:...
Usually, this is true. However, have you ever played in a game where your enemy sent a truck to your base and built on 1/2 your base oil? Food for thought :)
Does being in a game where the enemy tries to build on my base oil, so I quickly build my derricks and send a truck and build on ½ their base oil, count?

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Re: Power rebalance

Post by effigy » 18 Jan 2012, 03:56

Cyp wrote:
effigy wrote:
aubergine wrote:...
Usually, this is true. However, have you ever played in a game where your enemy sent a truck to your base and built on 1/2 your base oil? Food for thought :)
Does being in a game where the enemy tries to build on my base oil, so I quickly build my derricks and send a truck and build on ½ their base oil, count?
That would be awesome :ninja:
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Re: Power rebalance

Post by NoQ » 18 Jan 2012, 09:41

"Rush" now seems to mean merely "rushing for oil", not rushing the enemy's base.
I feel as if you misunderstood me in that IRC talk. Rushers on Startup don't just rush trucks blindly to build ~12 oils and leave ~7 to the enemy, but they actually have enough tanks to protect them for a while, so no unnecessary oil derrick construction happens, and even if it does, there is enough time for both sides to get back what they are able to protect. What i was trying to say is that rushing does mean rushing to enemy base, but even if rushing to the base fails, rusher still has a certain economical and force advantage (and technological disadvantage, of course).

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Re: Power rebalance

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 27 Jan 2012, 10:20

So... I guess that my habit of what I've always called aggressively expanding my economy translates to oil-rushing for you guys, eh?

Anyways, I'm OK with putting a price on Oil Derricks, so long as it doesn't cost more than $50 per derrick. Any more, and I fear that they would become TOO expensive for early T1 games. (By comparison, a single Viper Truck Wheels currently costs $62.)

Of course, if $50 seems too cheap for the mid-late game, then we could always upgrade them, by building some sort of costly $100+ "Oil Derrick module" that would increase power income from that derrick only.
Per wrote:This is how I think it should change: The HQ is cheap to build, and gives you a basic income. (From its miniature nuclear reactor, or something like that.) Oil derricks are expensive to build. The power generator is very expensive to build, but gives lots of income compared to HQ (if you have oil derricks for it). Players should start with far less power than now.
While I do like the idea of a tiny stream of power coming from something other than oil derricks, I'd probably want it to come on its own, without requiring ANY buildings to be constructed (sort of like how the ACU in Supreme Commander, a unique unit that represents the player in-game, generates a tiny amount of mass and energy in order to be able to continue building anything, even if the player is out of mass and energy). That way, in case you lose all your buildings, and you don't have enough power to rebuild any derricks or HQs, then you'd still be in the game so long as you have some trucks left (though barely, since you'd probably still be at an economical disadvantage).
Reg312 wrote:Increase price of power module also might be good
I think so as well. Currently, Power Modules can be built free of charge. Of course, they'd still need Oil Derricks in order to even function.
aubergine wrote:BTW, while starcraft might be great, WZ shouldn't turn in to starcraft.
I agree. Starcraft (2) seemed to be more about micromanaging smaller armies and expanding slowly than it was about macromanaging larger ones and expanding quickly, which seems to be more up Warzone 2100's alley.
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Re: Power rebalance

Post by aubergine » 27 Jan 2012, 12:16

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote: While I do like the idea of a tiny stream of power coming from something other than oil derricks, I'd probably want it to come on its own, without requiring ANY buildings to be constructed (sort of like how the ACU in Supreme Commander, a unique unit that represents the player in-game, generates a tiny amount of mass and energy in order to be able to continue building anything, even if the player is out of mass and energy). That way, in case you lose all your buildings, and you don't have enough power to rebuild any derricks or HQs, then you'd still be in the game so long as you have some trucks left (though barely, since you'd probably still be at an economical disadvantage).
By the time you have nothing but a truck left, you're effectively doomed anyway unless you have plenty of $ left with which to quickly rebuild and capture back oil resources...?
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Re: Power rebalance

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 27 Jan 2012, 15:07

aubergine wrote:By the time you have nothing but a truck left, you're effectively doomed anyway unless you have plenty of $ left with which to quickly rebuild and capture back oil resources...?
There is one possible scenario that could play out, where both players destroy eachother's bases with their respective attacking armies, bringing some Trucks along just in case. If both players' power supplies were depleted (from trying to consume more power for producing than they can generate) at the time that their bases were destroyed, then unless they are able to somehow collect enough power to start up a new economy, then those Trucks would be useless, aside from being necessary to keep around in order to avoid defeat. It'll then come down to whoever can destroy all of the opponent's Trucks, regardless of how powerful each player's remaining forces are. In such a situation, if one player didn't have any units to protect his/her remaining trucks, then that player is screwed.

This is why I'm supportive of the idea of players gradually receiving a tiny stream of power, even when they have no buildings built. It ensures that, even under such unfavorable odds, the players still have a chance, albeit a slim one, that they can turn things around. Again, using Supreme Commander as an example, so long as the ACU is still alive, players can still continue the battle, and still have a chance to turn it around, even if all of their resource-gathering structures are destroyed, and even if the player is outgunned.
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Re: Power rebalance

Post by effigy » 27 Jan 2012, 15:21

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote: There is one possible scenario that could play out,...
I'll offer a 2nd: Having your base destroyed in a team game with anti-team teammates.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

Per
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Re: Power rebalance

Post by Per » 27 Jan 2012, 16:11

You do not need a tiny stream, you can just hunt down oil barrels.

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Re: Power rebalance

Post by effigy » 27 Jan 2012, 16:31

Oil barrels and alcoholic fathers have a lot in common: never around when you need them.
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Re: Power rebalance

Post by Iluvalar » 27 Jan 2012, 17:09

Yeah they are in finite number and they end up appearing on a cliff or something inaccessible.

I'll repeat what I said for a long time : power production buildings cant appear as long as we have that tech tree. The upgrades having a linear progression instead of a proportional one make the effect of research (even if they were at the same price) decline with the time. This mean that if we create a building that produce X power with a cost of Y, there will be a threshold point in the game that will make that building replace every research. We'd get a full scale WZ-city gaming style as a god tier move after a specific moment.

We cant change the progression scheme of that res tree. If we shrink, scale or warp the lines, they will no more meet at the wanted position. Creating weird situation like AG being weaker than HMG.
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