Command center

The place to discuss balance changes for future versions of the game.
(Master releases & 3.X)

Do you like the change implemented in ticket #3055?

Yeah
3
12%
Nay
22
88%
 
Total votes: 25

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NoQ
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Command center

Post by NoQ » 15 Jan 2012, 14:31

I think the change mentioned in #3055 (removing the necessity of command center to design units, research towers and have a minimap, while improving its role as a long-range sensor tower) affects the early-game balance pretty heavily, which is something i don't really like. Even though it seems to sound like removing an unnecessary macro, it also reduces the possible number of strategies, allows extremely early rushes (as compared to technology-oriented build orders that prefer a second lab to an extremely early command center) and, most importantly, even more early truck rushes.

Reg312
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Re: Command center

Post by Reg312 » 15 Jan 2012, 14:56

Agreed with NoQ.
Command center extends strategies, and is nice.

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Re: Command center

Post by Jorzi » 15 Jan 2012, 15:04

Yeah, truck rush should not be encouraged
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Re: Command center

Post by Per » 15 Jan 2012, 16:16

The early game is a mess, and the HQ hacks do not really make it a whole lot better. Instead, it makes it harder to experiment with real changes.

As for truck rush, I measured it. The earliest truck rush you can do (on smaller maps) after this change is approx 1 minute 50 seconds. Before this change, it was approx 2 minutes 2 seconds. On larger maps, the difference is slightly larger, since you cannot multitask research while driving for as long, but it only differs by some seconds.

You can build tons of mg towers before you need to build anything else (reslab + hq before, only reslab now). (I can easily take out three Nexus AIs without building anything other than trucks and mg towers the whole game. I just plant an mg tower in each base entrace, within reach of one or two buildings. Then work my way in. The AI is practically dead before I make a factory. I think most noobs would be equally helpless.)

Mg towers are too cheap. They are too early. They are too poweful (whose idea was it to give them a heavy mg before it was even researched?). They are begging to be abused.

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Black Project
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Re: Command center

Post by Black Project » 15 Jan 2012, 16:24

Per wrote:Mg towers are too cheap. They are too early. They are too poweful (whose idea was it to give them a heavy mg before it was even researched?). They are begging to be abused.
What about removing it from the research tree?

Don't forget that the MG Bunker is also another HMG defense who doesn't require the HMG itself to be made researchable. Make it require the HMG to be researchable also.

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Axel
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Re: Command center

Post by Axel » 15 Jan 2012, 16:24

Now i agree with Noq.
I like his idea of decision of this problem.
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lav_coyote25
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Re: Command center

Post by lav_coyote25 » 15 Jan 2012, 22:51

there ya go, changing the basic gpm again! :annoyed: if it aint broke. leave it the heck alone.

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vexed
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Re: Command center

Post by vexed » 16 Jan 2012, 03:14

I was thinking about the same, seems to me that the template loading/saving stuff should only be enabled once you have a CC.
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lav_coyote25
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Re: Command center

Post by lav_coyote25 » 16 Jan 2012, 03:49

ya know, tweaking here and there is fine. but leave the basic underlying gpm the heck alone. as i have said before and will till the day i die, if it aint broke. leave it the heck alone. :annoyed:

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lav_coyote25
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Re: Command center

Post by lav_coyote25 » 16 Jan 2012, 03:52

lav_coyote25 wrote:ya know, tweaking here and there is fine. but leave the basic underlying gpm the heck alone. as i have said before and will till the day i die, if it aint broke. leave it the heck alone. :annoyed:
unless of course balance of certain weapons for all forms : skirmish / multiplayer and campaign are on the table. other wise. this will remain as is. thanks.

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aubergine
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Re: Command center

Post by aubergine » 16 Jan 2012, 03:54

I voted "Nay".

I like the CC the way it is - I think not having a CC should prevent certain stuff from happening, forcing the CC to be built to get better stuff.
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effigy
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Re: Command center

Post by effigy » 16 Jan 2012, 04:11

vexed wrote:I was thinking about the same, seems to me that the template loading/saving stuff should only be enabled once you have a CC.
This makes the most sense to me. There are ways to make the CC more useful while keeping some tradition.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Command center

Post by aubergine » 16 Jan 2012, 04:24

One more idea: If you've previously spotted buildings in fog of war area, they are still visible on the map/minimap. Why not link that to the presence of a CC?

So, if you don't have a C, the map doesn't remember where buildings in FOW are. If you do have a CC, it remembers. But if your CC then gets destroyed, it forgets the locations of enemy buildings in FOW.

This would give a tactical advantage to having a CC (ability to still know where previously sighted enemy buildings are despite them currently being in FOW) and a good reason to target enemy CCs... ?
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Emdek
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Re: Command center

Post by Emdek » 16 Jan 2012, 12:51

effigy wrote:There are ways to make the CC more useful while keeping some tradition.
What about this way?
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Terminator
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Re: Command center

Post by Terminator » 16 Jan 2012, 13:13

Emdek wrote:
effigy wrote:There are ways to make the CC more useful while keeping some tradition.
What about this way?
command relay is about nothing in current state, so... CC + nothing = CC - where is the difference ? its pointless. better to keep relay center for future (max units limit ? :roll: )
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