Warzone 2100 Forums

If anything except 'just right', then please tell us your reason(s) for this.

After a while flamers become some what weak or useless.

Even though regular flamers are just fine, inferno python hovers have turned out to be an instant win in most of the games i've seen them in, both low-oil and high-oil.

I think that players simply don't use protection against flame throwers, namely the design of tanks not only on the basis of cases of a new paradigm bodies, but doesn't need to be forgotten about the Tracks chassis and a constant upgrade of the thermal reservation and as use that the radius at flame throwers is less than at other weapon.
Flame throwers the weapon of the kamikaze.

My limited experience: Flamer cyborgs are overpowered, but only early game.

Biggest problem is perhaps that it is hard to see (ie unintuitive) what protects against fire, except for the thermal armour upgrades, which come somewhat late in the game.

Flamers overpowered by following reasons:
1) Flamer's damage grow faster than thermal armor
2) Researching flamers gives another advantages - strong thermite bombs, incendiary mortar

What fix:
1) Make flamer's damage more dependent on thermal armor
2) Fix overpowered incendiary mortar
3) Fix overpowered VTOL Thermite bombs

What should not be touched:
1) Cheapness of flamers
2) Splash and penetrate effects


I suggest following changes to flamer and other overpowered incendiary weapons:

Plasmite Flamer [PlasmiteFlamer]
'Build Power' 80 => 120
'Build Points' 400 => 500
'Firepause (10=1s)' 20 => 18
'Damage' 63 => 54
'Incendiary Damage' 63 => 54
Incendiary Mortar [Mortar-Incenediary]
'Damage' 90 => 80
'Incendiary Damage' 30 => 25
Incendiary Howitzer [Howitzer-Incenediary]
'Damage' 200 => 190
'Incendiary Damage' 60 => 50
Inferno [Flame2]
'Build Points' 400 => 500
'Firepause (10=1s)' 20 => 18
'Damage' 40 => 35
'Incendiary Damage' 40 => 35
Flamer [Flame1Mk1]
'Damage' 28 => 26
'Incendiary Damage' 28 => 26
Flamer [CyborgFlamer01]
'Damage' 22 => 20
'Incendiary Damage' 22 => 20
*Cybrog Thermite Weapon* [Cyb-Wpn-Thermite]
'Damage' 38 => 32
'Incendiary Damage' 38 => 32
VTOL Plasmite Bomb Bay [Bomb5-VTOL-Plasmite]
'Build Power' 225 => 300
'Build Points' 1000 => 1200
'Damage' 1000 => 900
'Incendiary Damage' 200 => 170
VTOL Thermite Bomb Bay [Bomb4-VTOL-HvyINC]
'Build Power' 225 => 270
'Damage' 400 => 375
'Incendiary Damage' 200 => 145

Flamer cyborgs are overpowered, but only early game.

I don't think so. By the time you get enough of them, your opponent can get pretty nice machineguns. Hopefully related video.

I recently tested flamers in master and found it become weaker with same stats.
burn parts of damage about 2 times weaker

I testet damage from 1 plasmite shot to cobra half tracks sensor (, scirmish, used "research all" for me and AI opponent, difficulty 'normal')
2.3.9: about 50% damage
master: 24% damage

repeated test 2 times, same result.
seem master have bug with duration of incendiary damage or something was changed in code
so, this thread useless until someone check burn damage funtion and find what changed

The only way to test it is on the field. If you feel like having a test, then you can find me on the IRC community chat channel. We can have it recorded and exhibit the results here for everyone else to see.

JDW wrote:The only way to test it is on the field. If you feel like having a test, then you can find me on the IRC community chat channel. We can have it recorded and exhibit the results here for everyone else to see.

if you know how enter debug mode in multiplayer to avoid long researching, then we can test damage in some aspects and compare to 2.3.9
i just assume what damage work same way in scirmish, excluding difficulty modifier.
time ago i prepared 2 videos about burn damage to compare 2.3.9 and master
1) Master incenrdiary damage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5We9S8aRA4
2) 2.3.9 incenrdiary damage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJdm3YJusgc

this time i tested plasmite flamers and found same issue - long time damage became lesser in master

Axel wrote:I think that players simply don't use protection against flame throwers, namely the design of tanks not only on the basis of cases of a new paradigm bodies, but doesn't need to be forgotten about the Tracks chassis and a constant upgrade of the thermal reservation and as use that the radius at flame throwers is less than at other weapon.
Flame throwers the weapon of the kamikaze.

It's not just "using" the flamers protection, its overdoing it. If you adapt to cannon with borgs, it's an instant result for the cannon player that quicky need to counter back. It's not the same with flamer, one must adapt his populsion, his body and change his research just to have the game keeping "fair". Once you'll start to nerf the flamers a little, you'll find out that the players start to use an alt weapon. Than you will see that you new paradigm tracked model with lower damage and armor (because you spent on thermal) are shredded by the other weapons at that point.

It's not just "using" the flamers protection, its overdoing it. If you adapt to cannon with borgs, it's an instant result for the cannon player that quicky need to counter back...

hmm... But who improves thermally is protected all the same has in a case reserve Project bodies which enough strong in comparison with cases of a new paradigm. Besides, change at attacker side of the main weapon, conducts to fall of damages, as the new and -> less upgraded.
Flame throwers practically useless against walls, the player should use them as.
I understand this trouble, may be need to try increase strength of upgrade thermal protection?

I never really use flamers until their research becomes necessary for something else.

Reg312 wrote:....
seem master have bug with duration of incendiary damage or something was changed in code
so, this thread useless until someone check burn damage funtion and find what changed

This Balance forum is meant for master builds. See: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8803

If something change between master and 2.3.9 about dmg calculation or such, I regard that as a big bug that must be corrected. The balance in 2.3.9 is pretty good, so i don't see any relevant reasons to do major change in the formulas. (Unless maybe the armor)... hmm we might talk about that...