Flamers!

The place to discuss balance changes for future versions of the game.
(Master releases & 3.X)

Flamers are...

underpowered !
12
22%
just right !
18
33%
overpowered !
25
45%
 
Total votes : 55

Flamers!

Postby vexed » 15 Jan 2012, 04:57

If anything except 'just right', then please tell us your reason(s) for this.
/facepalm ...Grinch stole Warzone🙈🙉🙊 contra principia negantem non est disputandum
Super busy, don't expect a timely reply back.
User avatar
vexed
Inactive
Inactive
 
Posts: 2407
Joined: 27 Jul 2010, 02:07

Re: Flamers!

Postby nategold91 » 15 Jan 2012, 05:22

After a while flamers become some what weak or useless.
nategold91
New user
 
Posts: 2
Joined: 20 Sep 2011, 03:11

Re: Flamers!

Postby NoQ » 15 Jan 2012, 05:43

Even though regular flamers are just fine, inferno python hovers have turned out to be an instant win in most of the games i've seen them in, both low-oil and high-oil.
User avatar
NoQ
Special
Special
 
Posts: 6064
Joined: 24 Dec 2009, 11:35
Location: /var/zone

Re: Flamers!

Postby Axel » 15 Jan 2012, 10:45

I think that players simply don't use protection against flame throwers, namely the design of tanks not only on the basis of cases of a new paradigm bodies, but doesn't need to be forgotten about the Tracks chassis and a constant upgrade of the thermal reservation and as use that the radius at flame throwers is less than at other weapon.
Flame throwers the weapon of the kamikaze.
I play also under names: Zames, Cruel, Trauma
User avatar
Axel
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 27
Joined: 19 May 2008, 15:18
Location: Russia

Re: Flamers!

Postby Per » 15 Jan 2012, 12:52

My limited experience: Flamer cyborgs are overpowered, but only early game.

Biggest problem is perhaps that it is hard to see (ie unintuitive) what protects against fire, except for the thermal armour upgrades, which come somewhat late in the game.
Per
Warzone 2100 Team Member
Warzone 2100 Team Member
 
Posts: 3605
Joined: 03 Aug 2006, 19:39

Re: Flamers!

Postby Reg312 » 15 Jan 2012, 13:41

Flamers overpowered by following reasons:
1) Flamer's damage grow faster than thermal armor
2) Researching flamers gives another advantages - strong thermite bombs, incendiary mortar

What fix:
1) Make flamer's damage more dependent on thermal armor
2) Fix overpowered incendiary mortar
3) Fix overpowered VTOL Thermite bombs

What should not be touched:
1) Cheapness of flamers
2) Splash and penetrate effects


I suggest following changes to flamer and other overpowered incendiary weapons:

Plasmite Flamer [PlasmiteFlamer]
'Build Power' 80 => 120
'Build Points' 400 => 500
'Firepause (10=1s)' 20 => 18
'Damage' 63 => 54
'Incendiary Damage' 63 => 54
Incendiary Mortar [Mortar-Incenediary]
'Damage' 90 => 80
'Incendiary Damage' 30 => 25
Incendiary Howitzer [Howitzer-Incenediary]
'Damage' 200 => 190
'Incendiary Damage' 60 => 50
Inferno [Flame2]
'Build Points' 400 => 500
'Firepause (10=1s)' 20 => 18
'Damage' 40 => 35
'Incendiary Damage' 40 => 35
Flamer [Flame1Mk1]
'Damage' 28 => 26
'Incendiary Damage' 28 => 26
Flamer [CyborgFlamer01]
'Damage' 22 => 20
'Incendiary Damage' 22 => 20
*Cybrog Thermite Weapon* [Cyb-Wpn-Thermite]
'Damage' 38 => 32
'Incendiary Damage' 38 => 32
VTOL Plasmite Bomb Bay [Bomb5-VTOL-Plasmite]
'Build Power' 225 => 300
'Build Points' 1000 => 1200
'Damage' 1000 => 900
'Incendiary Damage' 200 => 170
VTOL Thermite Bomb Bay [Bomb4-VTOL-HvyINC]
'Build Power' 225 => 270
'Damage' 400 => 375
'Incendiary Damage' 200 => 145
Reg312
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: Flamers!

Postby NoQ » 15 Jan 2012, 14:26

Flamer cyborgs are overpowered, but only early game.
I don't think so. By the time you get enough of them, your opponent can get pretty nice machineguns. Hopefully related video.
User avatar
NoQ
Special
Special
 
Posts: 6064
Joined: 24 Dec 2009, 11:35
Location: /var/zone

Re: Flamers!

Postby Reg312 » 15 Jan 2012, 14:42

I recently tested flamers in master and found it become weaker with same stats.
burn parts of damage about 2 times weaker

I testet damage from 1 plasmite shot to cobra half tracks sensor (, scirmish, used "research all" for me and AI opponent, difficulty 'normal')
2.3.9: about 50% damage
master: 24% damage

repeated test 2 times, same result.
seem master have bug with duration of incendiary damage or something was changed in code
so, this thread useless until someone check burn damage funtion and find what changed
Reg312
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: Flamers!

Postby JDW » 15 Jan 2012, 18:37

The only way to test it is on the field. If you feel like having a test, then you can find me on the IRC community chat channel. We can have it recorded and exhibit the results here for everyone else to see.
"Speak when you are angry and you will make the best speech you will ever regret."
-- Ambrose Bierce
User avatar
JDW
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1669
Joined: 18 May 2010, 20:44

Re: Flamers!

Postby Reg312 » 15 Jan 2012, 18:49

JDW wrote:The only way to test it is on the field. If you feel like having a test, then you can find me on the IRC community chat channel. We can have it recorded and exhibit the results here for everyone else to see.


if you know how enter debug mode in multiplayer to avoid long researching, then we can test damage in some aspects and compare to 2.3.9
i just assume what damage work same way in scirmish, excluding difficulty modifier.
time ago i prepared 2 videos about burn damage to compare 2.3.9 and master
1) Master incenrdiary damage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5We9S8aRA4
2) 2.3.9 incenrdiary damage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJdm3YJusgc

this time i tested plasmite flamers and found same issue - long time damage became lesser in master
Reg312
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: Flamers!

Postby Iluvalar » 15 Jan 2012, 20:02

Axel wrote:I think that players simply don't use protection against flame throwers, namely the design of tanks not only on the basis of cases of a new paradigm bodies, but doesn't need to be forgotten about the Tracks chassis and a constant upgrade of the thermal reservation and as use that the radius at flame throwers is less than at other weapon.
Flame throwers the weapon of the kamikaze.

It's not just "using" the flamers protection, its overdoing it. If you adapt to cannon with borgs, it's an instant result for the cannon player that quicky need to counter back. It's not the same with flamer, one must adapt his populsion, his body and change his research just to have the game keeping "fair". Once you'll start to nerf the flamers a little, you'll find out that the players start to use an alt weapon. Than you will see that you new paradigm tracked model with lower damage and armor (because you spent on thermal) are shredded by the other weapons at that point.
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.
User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: Flamers!

Postby Axel » 16 Jan 2012, 12:11

It's not just "using" the flamers protection, its overdoing it. If you adapt to cannon with borgs, it's an instant result for the cannon player that quicky need to counter back...

hmm... But who improves thermally is protected all the same has in a case reserve Project bodies which enough strong in comparison with cases of a new paradigm. Besides, change at attacker side of the main weapon, conducts to fall of damages, as the new and -> less upgraded.
Flame throwers practically useless against walls, the player should use them as.
I understand this trouble, may be need to try increase strength of upgrade thermal protection?
I play also under names: Zames, Cruel, Trauma
User avatar
Axel
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 27
Joined: 19 May 2008, 15:18
Location: Russia

Re: Flamers!

Postby aubergine » 16 Jan 2012, 14:35

I never really use flamers until their research becomes necessary for something else.
"Dedicated to discovering Warzone artefacts, and sharing them freely for the benefit of the community."
-- https://warzone.atlassian.net/wiki/display/GO
User avatar
aubergine
Professional
Professional
 
Posts: 3459
Joined: 10 Oct 2010, 00:58

Re: Flamers!

Postby effigy » 18 Jan 2012, 02:37

Reg312 wrote:....
seem master have bug with duration of incendiary damage or something was changed in code
so, this thread useless until someone check burn damage funtion and find what changed


This Balance forum is meant for master builds. See: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=8803
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241
User avatar
effigy
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1217
Joined: 22 Jan 2010, 03:21

Re: Flamers!

Postby Iluvalar » 18 Jan 2012, 06:24

If something change between master and 2.3.9 about dmg calculation or such, I regard that as a big bug that must be corrected. The balance in 2.3.9 is pretty good, so i don't see any relevant reasons to do major change in the formulas. (Unless maybe the armor)... hmm we might talk about that...
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.
User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Next

Return to Balance