Increase rate of fire for Bunker Buster

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Forgon
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Increase rate of fire for Bunker Buster

Post by Forgon » 17 Feb 2019, 00:29

Bunker Busters are too weak, mostly because they take 20 seconds to reload.

After firing the first shot at an enemy position, they must usually retreat
because they are defenseless against combat units.
After they have reloaded, it is unwise to try another attack due to their
vulnerability. All this makes me question how useful they are.

I have not been able to use Bunker Busters successfully in skirmish games
against bots like BoneCrusher!, and thus doubt that they are strong enough
for multiplayer games.

Buildings can be destroyed more effectively and with less risk of losing units
  • with cannons or artillery on the ground
  • with bombs in the air (as an alternative to the Bunker Buster VTOL)
As a remedy
  • the Bunker Buster should take only 8 seconds to reload, instead of 20.
    This is on average as fast as the Lancer that fires two rounds in 16 seconds.
  • the VTOL Bunker Buster should be able to fire two rounds, rather than one.
    The second shot can be fired 8 seconds after the first.
Ticket #4861 contains a patch file and a savegame for version
3.3.0 Beta 1, which allows you to compare Bunker Busters to other weapons.

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NoQ
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Re: Increase rate of fire for Bunker Buster

Post by NoQ » 17 Feb 2019, 05:24

Forgon wrote:
17 Feb 2019, 00:29
Buildings can be destroyed more effectively and with less risk of losing units
  • with cannons...
You cannot develop cannons and rockets simultaneously in a competitive game. Which pretty much defines the place for bunker busters in the balance: the anti-building weapon of the rocket "race".

Bunker busters are still pretty weak though.

Cyp
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Re: Increase rate of fire for Bunker Buster

Post by Cyp » 17 Feb 2019, 09:03

Forgon wrote:
17 Feb 2019, 00:29
  • the VTOL Bunker Buster should be able to fire two rounds, rather than one.
    The second shot can be fired 8 seconds after the first.
Note that this would probably make bunker buster VTOLs weaker against AA, since they would stay there for longer with the 8 second wait.

There doesn't seem to be any long-range homing fortress buster weapon to match scourge.

On an unrelated note, not sure why there isn't any laser fortress, AG fortress or flamer fortress.

Forgon
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Re: Increase rate of fire for Bunker Buster

Post by Forgon » 17 Feb 2019, 15:48

NoQ wrote:
17 Feb 2019, 05:24
Forgon wrote:
17 Feb 2019, 00:29
Buildings can be destroyed more effectively and with less risk of losing units
  • with cannons...
You cannot develop cannons and rockets simultaneously in a competitive game. Which pretty much defines the place for bunker busters in the balance: the anti-building weapon of the rocket "race".
[...]
You are right about cannons and rockets being mutually exclusive strategies.
But the weakness of Bunker Busters makes rockets less viable.
I failed to beat the "Two-Faced" challenge with rockets because Bunker Busters
  • could not inflict much damage due to their low rate of fire even when they
    had infiltrated an enemy base
  • were still necessary to destroy bunkers protecting enemy oil derricks
Cyp wrote:
17 Feb 2019, 09:03
Forgon wrote:
17 Feb 2019, 00:29
  • the VTOL Bunker Buster should be able to fire two rounds, rather than one.
    The second shot can be fired 8 seconds after the first.
Note that this would probably make bunker buster VTOLs weaker against AA, since they would stay there for longer with the 8 second wait.
[...]
8 seconds between firing two shots is indeed too long.
I have updated my patch so that "firePause" is set to 10, that means 1 second.
This value is used by most bombers.

Based on my T3 savegame I compared the damage inflicted by the unpatched
VTOL Bunker Buster to the impact of bombs, always dropping all available loads:

Attacking a factory with 3 modules led to the following reduction in hitpoints:
  • VTOL Bunker Buster: 2800 -> 2270 (1740 with two rounds)
  • VTOL Cluster Bomb Bay: 2800 -> 2293
  • VTOL Phosphor Bomb Bay: 2800 -> 515
  • VTOL HEAP Bomb Bay: 2800 -> 364
Attacking a Lancer Hardpoint led to the following reduction in hitpoints:
  • VTOL Bunker Buster: 2240 -> 880 (0 with two rounds)
  • VTOL Cluster Bomb Bay: 2240 -> 1883
  • VTOL Phosphor Bomb Bay: 2240 -> 1437
  • VTOL HEAP Bomb Bay: 2240 -> 275
Attacking a Light Cannon Bunker led to the following reduction in hitpoints:
  • VTOL Bunker Buster: 1960 -> 141 (0 with two rounds)
  • VTOL Cluster Bomb Bay: 1960 -> 1894
  • VTOL Phosphor Bomb Bay: 1960 -> 0
  • VTOL HEAP Bomb Bay: 1960 -> 1297
On a related note, bombs inflict so much damage that players are not encouraged
to try any other weapons. Why, for instance, would a player attack cyborgs with
a VTOL machinegun when bombs are much more effective?
Cyp wrote:
17 Feb 2019, 09:03
There doesn't seem to be any long-range homing fortress buster weapon to match scourge.

On an unrelated note, not sure why there isn't any laser fortress, AG fortress or flamer fortress.
Personally, I regard fortresses a undesirably crude and poorly balanced.
They do not add anything interesting to the game.

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Berg
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Re: Increase rate of fire for Bunker Buster

Post by Berg » 18 Feb 2019, 00:19

Forgon wrote:
17 Feb 2019, 15:48
Personally, I regard fortresses a undesirably crude and poorly balanced.
They do not add anything interesting to the game
I'm sure you need to play multi player games this is truly wrong.
I suggest you play more warzone.
As for bunker busters I don't use them.
And if I did I would set my units on repair at med damage that way they don't get blown up
2 shot vtol with 8second wait would leave them open to ground fire too long

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Guardsman Brendo
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Re: Increase rate of fire for Bunker Buster

Post by Guardsman Brendo » 22 May 2019, 00:56

I would suggest 8 seconds for the land-based variant, but a short time for the second VTOL shot, maybe half a second. If realism were taken into account, there would probably be some sort of autoloader inside the VTOL weapon/airframe, allowing each shot to be swapped. However, removing the firing tube swap system and reloading both missiles would take quite some time, hence the Rearming pad, where the reload time could be multiplied by a factor of 1.5.


The VTOL range should also be increased. Why? 1: Given that these are designed to hit static targets, not much effort would be required in terms of sighting in/acquiring a target with onboard systems. This allows both shots to be fired in one run if the correct approach angle is taken into consideration. This brings in reason 2: More strategy. If an improper angle is used, or there is a significant height change that affects visibility, only one shot can be fired before the next attack run, requiring the craft to prepare to fire again instead of immediately returning to base. This exposes the plane to more AA fire, which is bad for obvious reasons. It also gives an incentive for using natural terrain and strategically placed AA to the base builder.


I also hate it when I see that the bunker is reduced to a good .5% of the HP left. I WANT IT OUT NOW!
--As of the above time, this was the last transmission received.

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