BOMB - Balance Overhaul Management Beta

The place to discuss balance changes for future versions of the game.
(Master releases & 3.X)

Re: BOMB - Balance Overhaul Management Beta

Postby Bethrezen » 29 Nov 2017, 05:37

Ok so updated to the latest master
warzone2100-master-20171127-050950-fa6e0cb.exe (27-Nov-2017)

Downloaded the mod copied it to to c:\Warzone 2100_portable-master\mods\campaign

Created a short cut with the following command line
"c:\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe" --mod_ca=Updated-Campaign-Hiro.wz

Started the game every thing seemed fine clicked new campaign > alpha campaign, and the game crashed so unless I'm doing something wrong then that mod is buggy.

Here is the log

Code: Select all
 --- Starting log [C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\Warzone 2100 master\logs\WZlog-1129_031359.txt]---
info    |03:14:00: [realmain:973] mod_ca (Updated-Campaign-Hiro.wz) is enabled
info    |03:14:13: [getCompFromID:1421] No such component ID [BabaMG] found
info    |03:14:13: [getCompFromID:1421] Assert in Warzone: stats.cpp:1421 (psComp), last script event: '<none>'
info    |03:14:13: [intChooseSystemStats:1005] Invalid range referenced for numWeaponStats, 255 > 92
info    |03:14:13: [intChooseSystemStats:1005] Assert in Warzone: design.cpp:1005 (compIndex < numWeaponStats), last script event: '<none>'
error   |03:14:17: [TopLevelExceptionFilter:1320] Exception handler failed to create file!


Here is the Warzone2100.RPT crash dump

Code: Select all
-------------------

Error occurred on Wednesday, November 29, 2017 at 03:53:22.

Program: C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe(warzone2100)
Command line: "C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe" "--mod_ca=Updated-Campaign-Hiro.wz"
Version: Version: master fa6e0cb, Built:Nov 27 2017
Distributor: buildbot
Compiled on: Nov 27 2017 05:33:23
Compiled by: GCC 4.9.3
Compiled mode: Release build
Executed on: Wed Nov 29 03:53:15 2017

Pointers: 32bit

Compiled against PhysicsFS version: 2.0.3
Running with PhysicsFS version: 2.0.3

Misc Data:
[03:53:16]Video Mode 800 x 600 (fullscreen)
[03:53:16]OpenGL Vendor: NVIDIA Corporation
[03:53:16]OpenGL Renderer: GeForce 9500 GT/PCIe/SSE2
[03:53:16]OpenGL Version: 3.3.0
[03:53:16]GLEW Version: 1.12.0
[03:53:16]OpenGL GLSL Version : 3.30 NVIDIA via Cg compiler
[03:53:16]OpenAL Device Name: OpenAL Soft
[03:53:16]OpenAL Vendor: OpenAL Community
[03:53:16]OpenAL Version: 1.1 ALSOFT 1.16.0
[03:53:16]OpenAL Renderer: OpenAL Soft
[03:53:16]OpenAL Extensions: AL_EXT_ALAW AL_EXT_DOUBLE AL_EXT_EXPONENT_DISTANCE AL_EXT_FLOAT32 AL_EXT_IMA4 AL_EXT_LINEAR_DISTANCE AL_EXT_MCFORMATS AL_EXT_MULAW AL_EXT_MULAW_MCFORMATS AL_EXT_OFFSET AL_EXT_source_distance_model AL_LOKI_quadriphonic AL_SOFT_block_alignment AL_SOFT_buffer_samples AL_SOFT_buffer_sub_data AL_SOFT_deferred_updates AL_SOFT_direct_channels AL_SOFT_loop_points AL_SOFT_MSADPCM AL_SOFT_source_latency AL_SOFT_source_length
[03:53:16]Using Backend: SDL
[03:53:16]Using language: System locale
[03:53:21]mod: Updated-Campaign-Hiro.wz
[03:53:21]mod: Updated-Campaign-Hiro.wz
[03:53:21]mod: Updated-Campaign-Hiro.wz
[03:53:21]mod: Updated-Campaign-Hiro.wz

C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe caused an Access Violation at location 0041b499 in module C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe Reading from location 00000008.

Log message: info    |03:53:15: [realmain:973] mod_ca (Updated-Campaign-Hiro.wz) is enabled
Log message: info    |03:53:22: [getCompFromID:1421] No such component ID [BabaMG] found
Log message: info    |03:53:22: [getCompFromID:1421] Assert in Warzone: stats.cpp:1421 (psComp), last script event: '<none>'
Log message: info    |03:53:22: [intChooseSystemStats:1005] Invalid range referenced for numWeaponStats, 255 > 92
Log message: info    |03:53:22: [intChooseSystemStats:1005] Assert in Warzone: design.cpp:1005 (compIndex < numWeaponStats), last script event: '<none>'

Registers:
eax=00000000 ebx=0023ec64 ecx=00000000 edx=0023e780 esi=00000000 edi=0023ec1c
eip=0041b499 esp=0023eb3c ebp=0023eba4 iopl=0         nv up ei ng nz na po nc
cs=001b  ss=0023  ds=0023  es=0023  fs=003b  gs=0000             efl=00010286

Call stack:
0041B499  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0041B499  GetDefaultTemplateName  /home/warzone2100/mxe_jan2016/usr/i686-w64-mingw32.static/qt5/include/QtCore/qstring.h:857
005329FE  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:005329FE  loadDroidTemplates  /home/warzone2100/mxe_jan2016/usr/i686-w64-mingw32.static/qt5/include/QtCore/qstring.h:656
00416B95  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00416B95  bufferSTEMPLLoad  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/data.cpp:316
005938D8  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:005938D8  resLoadFile  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/frameresource.cpp:547
0059641A  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0059641A  res_parse  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/resource_parser.ypp:120
0059326F  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0059326F  resLoad  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/framework/frameresource.cpp:206
00476519  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:00476519  levLoadData  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/levels.cpp:758
0047B442  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0047B442  startGameLoop  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/main.cpp:555
0047B7E0  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0047B7E0  mainLoop  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/main.cpp:731
0059027D  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0059027D  wzMainEventLoop  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/lib/sdl/main_sdl.cpp:1544
0047CD9C  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:0047CD9C  realmain  /home/buildbot/slaves/warzone2100/master-nightly/build/src/main.cpp:1080
005C37EC  C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\Warzone 2100_portable-master\warzone2100_portable.exe:005C37EC


[edit]

I also tried going to c:\Warzone 2100_portable-master\mods crating a folder called autoload and then extracting the contents of base.zip in to it, and then double clicking the warzone2100_portable.exe to start the game, again the game loads fine and i get a message in the top left corner of the games main screen mod: base, base.zip informing me that it's loaded the mod ok

again i hit start new campaign > alpha campaign and once again the game crashed with the same log entries /crash dump that i already posed above.

i also double checked to make sure that the current master wasn't buggy by loading the master without the mod and the game started fine, so between that and the stack trace given in the crash dump id say its definitely a problem with the mod.
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Re: BOMB - Balance Overhaul Management Beta

Postby Berserk Cyborg » 29 Nov 2017, 06:20

Yeah, the mod needs to reflect the renaming of the campaign scavenger stats (see my post to carry over older saves: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&p=139142#p139142).

I did try the first mission on insane and found it to be quite challenging. I would suggest you increase damage of scavenger flamethrower tower as they are not that much of a threat. Also don't forget about the weaponmodifier and structuremodifier files, they determine the damage percentages and likely need updating.

It is possible to not use the flamethrower, which is a very powerful, on the first mission. I did underestimate your changes and attempted a half baked zerg on the third base and promptly got beat down (guess you were right). So I then went defensive and built some tank traps and MG towers to hide behind and collect more energy before trying again. Nice touch with how inaccurate MG is at least until the MG Chamber Compressor upgrade.
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Re: BOMB - Balance Overhaul Management Beta

Postby Bethrezen » 29 Nov 2017, 10:23

Ok so after fiddling about with the weapons.json file and changing the id's to match the new naming convention I was able to get the mod to load, so having given it a go on insane here is what I have

1.) As far as the balance of the machineguns go I think they can probably be left as they where before, because I feel like the real issue with machineguns being to powerful on the first level was due to getting the upgrade to soon and simply moving the MG upgrades to the last 2 base should be sufficient to tackle that issue because right now they feel like they have been nurfed a bit to heavily, and from my point of view we still have the same situation we started with only this time the needle has swung in favour of flamers instead of machineguns which is not really want we want.

So what I would be tempted to do to is reset machineguns stats to how they where before and simply move the MG upgrades to the last 2 bases I recon that should be sufficient curb there overpoweredness.

2.) The implementation of the flamer is definitely better, and 18 of those spraying fire every where is a sight to behold.

However again I feel like the burn damage is either being applied to slowly, or is simply to weak and or both, so what I would tempted to do is to very slightly increase the damage and make the burn damage apply a little faster.

3.) Those replacement MG upgrades seem to have some issues for a start range is not increased, second the damage increase only seem to restore the damage of the MG turret to where it would start at in an unmodified game so technically there not upgrades at all.

Now in an unmodified game the machinegun starts at

Range: 6.0
Damage: 10
Rate of fire: 120
Weight: 200

After applying the 3 MG upgrades those stats change to

Range: 6
Damage: 19
Rate of fire: 120
Rate of fire: 200

So that’s 3 damage upgrades adding 3 points each time, which is probably a bit much for the first level so here is what I'd do instead

MG upgrade 1 - Armour piercing bullets - increases damage
MG upgrade 2 - Improved weapon parts - increase accuracy and range
MG upgrade 3 - Improved cooling - Increases rate of fire

Here is what I'd proposed for the state boosts, Now assuming that you are starting at the default starting point for the machinegun in an unmodified game which would be as follows

Range: 6.0
Damage: 10
Rate of fire: 120
Weight: 200

Here is what the machinegun stats would look like after the 3 MG upgrades have been applied.

Range: 7.5
Damage: 14.5
Rate of fire: 150
Weight: 200

So why do the machinegun upgrades this way ? There are a couple of reasons, first of all machineguns are general purpose weapons and doing the upgrades this way plays to that, and from a logic stand point it makes more sense as well.

Secondly and perhaps more importantly you get less issues with the machineguns being overpowered because the damage boost is halved.

4.) Since I favour using units over turrets due to the fact that units rank up where turrets don’t getting the MG tower / tank trap tech sooner is pointless for me, and the repair tech would be much more useful, so perhaps this would be a reasonable compromise

Artefact 1 = Engineering > MG towers and Tank traps
Artefact 2 = Flame turret + Repair turret
Artefact 3 = Improved weapon parts + Improved cooling
Artefact 4 = Armour piercing bullets

Going with this order you are catering to both the defensive and the offensive play style.
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Re: BOMB - Balance Overhaul Management Beta

Postby Hironaru » 30 Nov 2017, 11:42

Back after hiatus.

So yeah, all of the previous files are void due to my changes I recommended to the file structure, and once I figure out how to use githubs forking and cross updating mechanisms, I will contribute an updated version reflecting the initial changes and then take the feedback here and push a new revision, after pushing the previous one which matches naming conventions. :)

As far as the overall experience, I am glad that everyone liked the changes, and had some feedback to give me for the next revision! (and that insane mode, while not supported yet, reflected the changes I wanted to accomplish perfectly.) On the note of machineguns feeling less powerful overall, this is because I want machineguns to only be effective in unit combat (specifically soft and lightly armored targets), while flamethrowers will be more for attacking emplacements like bunkers. This is in anticipation of the coming introduction to cannons, and wanting to make them awe-inspiring for use against armored targets.

The game should force players to have to adjust their strategy by the enemies they encounter, with mixed groups of units and micro being more effective than simply pooling one type of unit. Right now, I am only gearing normal mode, but if it applies effectively to insane mode pretty well then that's just less work we have to do later.
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Re: BOMB - Balance Overhaul Management Beta

Postby Bethrezen » 30 Nov 2017, 17:47

On the note of machineguns feeling less powerful overall, this is because I want machineguns to only be effective in unit combat (specifically soft and lightly armored targets), while flamethrowers will be more for attacking emplacements like bunkers. This is in anticipation of the coming introduction to cannons, and wanting to make them awe-inspiring for use against armored targets.


Certainly after I got the mod working, it seems ok, but what I did find though was that Machineguns felt a little over nurfed, at least as far as insane goes, don't get me wrong I get where you are coming from, the issue I have and something you may not of considered with this approach is that cannons are not available till Alpha 05 which means that until Alpha 05 you only really have 2 choices for a primary weapon Flamers or Machineguns, and before you say it yes I know we pick up mortars but the mortar is a support weapon so for this discussion mortars don’t count.

Anyway as I was saying given that you only really have a choice between either Flamers or Machineguns for the first 5 missions this approach falls flat on its face, this approach is fine for the latter stages of the game but not for the first 5 missions, for the first 5 missions it's not going to work.

Something else you have to keep in mind is that the time limits on insane are much more restrictive, which is another reason that this approach falls flat on its face, now that’s not such an issue for the first couple of missions as they have longer than needed time limits even on insane as they are designed to ease players into the game but on later levels the time limits have been tuned to a point where you only just about have enough time to complete the mission and if weapons take a significant nurf then that’s going to take longer to complete the level which is going to result in players running out of time and not being able to complete the level, so for that reason you would be better to start with insane and then work your way backwards.

In addition as I already stated with these proposed changes, we have the same situation we started with only this time it’s the opposite way round, where on an unmodified I'm game just flattening everything with 18 machinegun because flamer are useless on your mod I'm doing exactly the opposite and simply using 18 flamers to flatten everything because machineguns are useless.

Which is a situation we don’t want, so for the first 5 missions till you have a few more options you simply can't nurf machineguns so heavily instead what you should be aiming for is parity between flamers and machineguns so that which ever the player decides to use both are equally good, and equally effective, regardless of the target.

Unfortunately that is not the situation we have right now, currently flamers are more powerful than machineguns, and this is why I suggest not nurfing machineguns default values because I recon if you where to put the unmodified machineguns up against your modified flamer they would now actually be pretty equal, obviously this would be skewed slightly by the upgrades to machineguns which would push machineguns slightly ahead but given that you pick up your first upgrade to the flamer at the first based on the second level this would then balance back up pretty quickly so its not a significant problem so long as the upgrades are balanced.

The smarter way to handle this is to only buff or nurf the default values of units if they are to high or to low, now in the case of flamers the default values need buffing because they are to low but in the case of machineguns the default values are fine and can be left as is, because its not like machineguns where overpowered in of them selves it's simply that they go buffed to much by getting 3 damage upgrades on the first level, and its there where the balance adjustments need to me made for machineguns.

Of course this is something that is repeated through out the game where some weapons either get buffed by upgrades to much or not nearly enough in the case of most other weapon systems. So as I said it's there where the real balance changes need to be made.
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Re: BOMB - Balance Overhaul Management Beta

Postby Hironaru » 05 Dec 2017, 04:41

Just to let everyone know, I'm still alive. Having family over atm, and I also need to land a job before the end of the month, so I've been kind of strapped.

About the flamethrowers op-ness, just bear in mind I haven't redesigned the cam1b upgrades completely yet, which also includes the flamethrower. It currently grants nothing but damage, but I kind of wanted to play with reducing the damage, or transforming one of them into a boost to the dot, like enemy flame towers.

-----

With just Cam1a in mind, what did you guys think so far?
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