Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

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Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby crab_ » 11 Jan 2014, 16:22

Hello.
I want to discuss thing which i do not like in Warzone - This thing is Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources
Sorry for my bad english.
I'm trying to say: Players forced to remember locations of oil. It is makes players annoyed.

First I have to remind
  • This topic in only about Multiplayer. Skirmish games/Campaign are not discussed here.
  • This topic is about classic "low-oil" games. Classic game means game on classic map. Classic map is map with 6-10 oil per player. Examples of classic maps: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=6005
    Definition of "classic" map is being under discussion at current time.
  • Our goal: involve more players into classic games. Currently ~90% players in Multiplayer are playing only NTW-style maps. We need more "low-oil" players.

Why it happening Why oil remembering is so bad?
  • Problem1 - too much maps. Player physically cannot remember all of them.
    We have plenty of maps. Each map have unique layout. New maps are being created every day.
    We cannot solve this problem. So we have to adapt game to this.
  • Problem2 - Common player is lazy man. He do not like to spent his time on boring learning maps. By default he plays "NTW-style" maps.
    We cannot solve this problem. So we have to adapt game to this.
  • Problem3 - Warzone2100 have post-apocalyptic style. Terrain textures are "less-colored". It is hard to remember maps visually. Sometimes i can not even determine cliffs. I think it is one more reason why people prefer flat maps.
    We cannot solve this problem in near future. So we have to adapt game to this.
  • Problem4 - We do not have "common" rules of placing oil resources. Each map-maker does it by his own taste. In common case player does not even know where to find oil resources. Some map-makers place oil at hills, some place oil at low-ground, some of them place oil in center.
    This Problem4 is solvable partially.
  • Problem5 - ... Your opinion...

What we can do
  • Increase range of detection of oil resources.
  • Declare: we support maps only when locations of oil are easy memorable.
  • Declare list of "supported" maps which are made right.
  • Declare requirements to "right" maps.
  • Show locations of oil from start of game. (Devs tried it already, i think they are have to try again). Rewrite mini-map code?
  • ...your suggestions...

This topic in Balance subforum because knowing of map gives great advantage to player. If I remember map better than enemy player then I can receive 50%-100% energy advantage.
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby anonim17465 » 11 Jan 2014, 16:28

In normal games I spend all time in lobby to learn the map, and even then I do mistakes in game...
So, yes, that would be handy, especially for new maps.

But that will not change fact, that people like NTW maps more.
Reason for this is because people don't like to think, game is too complicated
and at T1 on low-oil maps you have to know exact order of technology otherwise you will lose (balance on each step do not exist).
NTW-styles maps are not so hard to play, you can make mistakes with less penalty.

cheap mistakes, that's what people like.
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby crab_ » 11 Jan 2014, 16:39

anonim17465 wrote:But that will not change fact, that people like NTW maps more.

I think this happens in any game. It is normal. I mean: people like high-oil. Let it be.
I'd like to see more players in low-oil games. I think we can do some steps to make low-oil games more liked by players.

anonim17465 wrote:NTW-styles maps are not so hard to play, you can make mistakes with less penalty.
cheap mistakes, that's what people like.


This is another problem. I'm agreed. I think this problem is also partially solvable.
But this is shape of game. We have a complicated Research Tree and we have a complicated weapon/propulsion modifiers.
We wont change shape of game. But we can add little improvements and see what will happen.


I can ask Why we support low-oil games and do not support High-oil if people do not play low-oil?
and before to judge me. ask yourself when you played low-oil games last time. As for me i played 8 low-oil games yesterday.
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby NoQ » 11 Jan 2014, 17:12

We can set startVisible of oil resource to 1, as a start.
This doesn't make oils show up on the minimap, but you still easily see them.
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby crab_ » 11 Jan 2014, 17:17

NoQ wrote:We can set startVisible of oil resource to 1, as a start.

As far i remember we have tried this solution already.
We found problem - when oil visible from start then you can see when each oil resource be occupied by enemy. So you can see what tactic uses yor enemy. For example, if player uses "rush-tactic" then he get oil earlier and you can see when it happens.

[update]
Hmm..your solution looks working. Why not suggested it 10 years ago? XD

[update2]
Well. Do you see when enemy gets oil resource?
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby NoQ » 11 Jan 2014, 17:59

Yeah, you see when oils are occupied, but, again, not on minimap, you have to constantly move camera around.

In fact right now we are having one more problem with it, namely 73952c9756a1894abcdf36d42f6ee5c90c52f619.
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby crab_ » 11 Jan 2014, 18:17

NoQ wrote:Yeah, you see when oils are occupied, but, again, not on minimap, you have to constantly move camera around.

I'm afraid this is not good :?
Knowledge of actions of your opponents is vital thing.
All you need to know - enemy got oil or he did not got oil yet.
If you see your enemy got oil too early - this means he will rush you. And you can start build MG towers right now (or preparing your army)
In another case if you see your enemy did not got oil - this means your enemy plan 'teching'. So you received vital information from your camera.
I think we can find another way. I think this issue is enough valuable to make devs spent some time on it.

NoQ wrote:In fact right now we are having one more problem with it, namely 73952c9756a1894abcdf36d42f6ee5c90c52f619.

I do not see problem here. Features.ini will become different in MP and in campaign. So it will be placed again in MP separately.
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby NoQ » 11 Jan 2014, 18:30

So the right solution is 1. don't show cyan beacons in fog of war, and also 2. don't remove oil resource model unless there's a visible oil derrick over it (?)
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby crab_ » 11 Jan 2014, 18:33

NoQ wrote: don't show cyan beacons in fog of war,

Not sure. But... when you see many cyan beacons from start - that is not very nice, looks ugly.
So yes. Do not show cyan beacons in fog of war.

NoQ wrote: 2. don't remove oil resource model unless there's a visible oil derrick over it (?)

That is right.
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby NoQ » 11 Jan 2014, 19:21

Or make a nicer shape for the beacon, and then keep beacons and pies synchronized.

But maybe not, after all the beacon is a reminder, sorta hey you stupid noob, go and take this oil already, you dummy. Which, by the way, is no longer a really great advice with paid derricks.
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby crab_ » 11 Jan 2014, 19:36

NoQ wrote:Or make a nicer shape for the beacon, and then keep beacons and pies synchronized.

Solution should depend on required time to implement.
I think better solution is "don't remove oil resource model unless there's a visible oil derrick over it (?)" plus show oil resource in fog of war.

NoQ wrote:...go and take this oil already, you dummy. Which, by the way, is no longer a really great advice with paid derricks.


Idea of Paid Derricks is too controversial. I think Paid Derrick is not a good solution.
Power System is another problem, we will discuss it in another life :P
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby Rommel » 11 Jan 2014, 19:59

I think in the end you just need to learn the map, of late I have been practicing more with low oil maps (heaven forbid) - I play the hell out of them in skirmish then start to host for MP. I have noticed that after doing this I will win against most noobs, win a lot against average players and still get my ass handed to me by the pros.

In the end I guess any General is going to study the theatre of war properly before committing to battle and really this should be a given in regards to all maps. I guess hosting MP maps you will never have a situation where everyone knows the map well enough to be competitive so it might be worthwhile having some kind of in game "random" map generator to really level the playing field.

Not sure if this would be possible (random maps), but as I said before, it would really level the playing field.

Oh and in regards to the maps shipped with WZ, does there have to be so many, why not cut it down to like 5 or so "official" competition maps and really encourage people to learn them...
Moving back instead of forward
Seems to me absurd
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby crab_ » 11 Jan 2014, 20:20

Rommel wrote:In the end I guess any General is going to study the theatre of war properly before committing to battle and really this should be a given in regards to all maps

You need to learn map anyway. You need to know how long path to enemy base / how much chokepoints and entrances.
In sounds good in theory, but at practice people do not have enough time to learning maps. People want play. They do not want to learn.
We do not have right to force people to learn if they do not want to learn.
Game should be for people, not for nerds :)

Rommel wrote:Oh and in regards to the maps shipped with WZ, does there have to be so many, why not cut it down to like 5 or so "official" competition maps and really encourage people to learn them...

Agreed.
I tried to suggest something similar in first post here.
We need separate "Addons" page with "official" competition maps.

Rommel wrote: guess hosting MP maps you will never have a situation where everyone knows the map well enough to be competitive so it might be worthwhile having some kind of in game "random" map generator to really level the playing field.

Yes we need Random Map Generator, but unfortunately we do not have that.

Searching oil is funny when both players do not know the map.
This happens very rare. Because you receive better knowledge of map with every next game.
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby montetank » 11 Jan 2014, 22:52

So-in future i will see 4 oil derricks in the right corner in the low-oil games. 8 oil-derricks in the left and right corner of my base in mid-oil-games. Let us forget the sensor-turrets. Let us forget to search for oil-derricks. Thanks. I cant follow this discussion.
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Re: Remembering of Locations of Oil Resources

Postby Terminator » 11 Jan 2014, 23:26

how about add a special ability to Command center - like : "find oil Impuls" that could be launched for example once per 2-3 mins or something like that. (similar to laser satellite commandpost, but to scan terrain for oils) and it may effect for certain radius - not for all map or something. Just derricks close to you - that should be reasonable. You wont capture enemies oil anyway, but if you do - that means you are "pro" and you will figures out that by yourself.
Last edited by Terminator on 12 Jan 2014, 00:37, edited 1 time in total.
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