Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

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Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby crab_ » 24 Dec 2013, 11:24

Hello.

In this topic i want start discussion about map balance.
Pre-installed maps have some weird issues in balance. Different player have different start conditions.
Some players have better positions.

Lets see what we have
Here is list of issues which i found in pre-installed maps
Note: some of my statements may be controversial but i have reasons. Let's discuss.

StartUp - 1vs1 map
  • Position of player 1 has disadvantages (it is player at top of map-preview):
    -----4 oil resouces at base more vulnerable to attack from hills around.
    -----1 oil resource are occupied by scavengers, so player 1 have less oil resources
    -----oil resources around base are spreaded and more vulnerable to side attacks than resources of another player
  • Passages are blockable by factories. Player can build factory in narrow passage and use it as wall.

HighGround - 1vs1 map
  • Player's 1 base is closer to center of map than player's 0 base.
    Player 1 have advantage.
  • "Tower rush" tactic is overpowered.
    Impossible play this map without use of MG towers.
  • Passages are blockable by factories. Player can build factory in narrow passage and use it as wall.
  • Too much oil in center of map. Players forced to build theirs bases in center of map.

Roughness - 1vs1 map
  • Too much oil and oil resources are spreaded widely. Hard to remember locations of oil resources.
    Player who has good known of map receives great advantage
  • Scavenger bases blocks players bases.
  • Too much trees. It is annoying to kill trees each time you play this map.

Vision - 1vs1 map
  • Hard to remember locations of oil resources.
    Player who has good known of map receives great advantage.
  • Pre-placed oil drums. No idea why need these oil drums, but it gives advantage to rushing player.
  • Too much oil in middle part of map.
    Player forced to move their bases closer to middle.

TO BE CONTINUED
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby montetank » 24 Dec 2013, 18:41

STARTUP: Agree- the one oil derrick in the east is useless-under attack of the scavs. 70% of the games i won in postion 0. Player at postion 1 has disadvantages.
HIGHGROUND: Don`t agree-I think player 0 is in advantage-the map is to small to see a significant advantage. Player 0 has to bulid his third factory near the oil derricks and his way to the enemy-base is nearer-it is more ore less a draw. The rush-tactic is good for player 0. I don`t try this map with the new balance.

ROUGHNESS-absolutely symmetric. So-where are the different start-conditions? It is a very good map. If somebody cant remember the oil-derricks-it is not my problem.
"Scavenger bases blocks players bases"--And? Whats the problem? It is not a quick-rush-map.

VISION-again the same problem. It is an absolutely fair, symmetric map. I see no reason for critics. I am not guilty, if my opponent is not so good in remembering the map.

With the map "Startup" you are right. But you said in your introducing : "Different player have different start conditions.
Some players have better positions." Not in Roughness, Vision and Highground.
In case the WZ-game ends in a draw , the game winner will be determined by penalty shoot-out.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby NoQ » 24 Dec 2013, 18:50

absolutely fair, symmetric map
montetank: different geography favors different strategies, a balanced map is a map that avoids that and allows multiple strategies. It has nothing to do with symmetry, a map on which there is only one way to win (eg. occupy the center as soon as possible) is crap. Start with this, it's a bit old but still gives an idea.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby montetank » 24 Dec 2013, 19:04

Whats about URBAN-CHAOSM, crab? With the new balance i see player 1 in advantage. The maps are all very good. Cant see a reason to change something. Maybee more maps- we have in the addon-section some more better 2-player maps. Why the discussion about the best maps? Watch for example at NoQs Omega http://addons.wz2100.net/26
ore Meros Cyclops http://addons.wz2100.net/54
But it is ok to put your fingers in this wound :-)
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby montetank » 24 Dec 2013, 19:13

NoQ-where do you see in Vision a geography advantage?
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Iluvalar » 27 Dec 2013, 23:26

montetank wrote:NoQ-where do you see in Vision a geography advantage?

He don't see it anywhere, he made the map lol. And I think I remember I made him admit the oil drums were a bad idea ;) .
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby NoQ » 28 Dec 2013, 07:15

It's a bit too large and also wide (lacks chokes) and also one oil in the middle should have been enough? (:
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby montetank » 28 Dec 2013, 18:11

Ok-maybe i understood something wrong. Its my bad english. Sorry. I saw crabs comment "Pre-installed maps have some weird issues in balance. Different player have different start conditions.
Some players have better positions." I didn`t saw some different start conditions in Vision-map. But i understand, what NoQ want to say..some maps are better for the rush-players. This maps support the rush strategies. And what? Whats wrong with this maps? Learn the rush-games. Learn to find ore to remember, where the oil is. I have some problems to follow this discussion.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby crab_ » 28 Dec 2013, 18:21

@montetank i have very bad english. So it is ok if you misunderstood me :)

I meant: common problem for some of maps - difference in staring conditions.

montetank wrote:I didn`t saw some different start conditions in Vision-map.

I agree. I did not meant to say Sk-Vision have different start conditions.

montetank wrote:This maps support the rush strategies. And what? Whats wrong with this maps? Learn the rush-games.

Game should allow players to use different strategies. This is main, this is "cornerstone" of balance.
Our goal - make set of 'ideal' maps. We need these maps to make us be able to say - what stuff is balanced and what stuff if unbalanced.
If rush strategy is only possible strategy on good balanced map - this can mean rush strategy is overpowered and should be nerfed. It can give us wrong results.
So first we need good balanced map for our futher conclusions.

NoQ wrote:Whats about URBAN-CHAOSM, crab?

I did not played this map too much. I do not know.

montetank wrote:Watch for example at NoQs Omega

This map looks interesting. I will try out.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby crab_ » 28 Dec 2013, 18:33

montetank wrote:ROUGHNESS-absolutely symmetric. So-where are the different start-conditions? It is a very good map. If somebody cant remember the oil-derricks-it is not my problem.
"Scavenger bases blocks players bases"--And? Whats the problem? It is not a quick-rush-map.

This map is symmetric and do not have issue with different start conditions.
montetank wrote: If somebody cant remember the oil-derricks-it is not my problem.

Can you understand. Game should welcome new players. More new players follows for more pro-players in future.
I think remembering of oil resources is main problem why people refuses to play classic low-oil games.
When we played Warzone Tournament remembering of oil resources was the main thing to do. You should know 'ideal' path to each oil resource.

So my statement: oil resources must be quite memorable
Common (regular) player should be able to remember oil resources after 1-2 games on map.
I do not mean "pro-players" like NoQ who can remember oil resources just from map preview.

montetank wrote:"Scavenger bases blocks players bases"--And? Whats the problem? It is not a quick-rush-map.

I think this is not good for "ideal" map. Players bases should not be blocked by scavs.

If you want i can explain..
montetank wrote:With the map "Startup" you are right. But you said in your introducing : "Different player have different start conditions.
Some players have better positions." Not in Roughness, Vision and Highground.

I planned overview more maps. For example Sk-Mountain have diffrent start positions for each player.
But i need to test all these maps..
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby montetank » 28 Dec 2013, 19:03

Crab wrote "I think this is not good for "ideal" map. Players bases should not be blocked by scavs."

So-switch them off.
In case the WZ-game ends in a draw , the game winner will be determined by penalty shoot-out.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby crab_ » 28 Dec 2013, 20:27

I tested UrbanChasm map a bit
Player 0 have 25% more power if scavs were turned on.

montetank wrote:Crab wrote "I think this is not good for "ideal" map. Players bases should not be blocked by scavs."
So-switch them off.

I assume pre-installed maps should be ideal.
I think we need just change this map a bit. It is quite easy :)
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby crab_ » 08 Jan 2014, 17:21

I just found out I was wrong about Start-Up map :oops: :oops:
Just enumerated oil resources and i see top player (player 1) has1 additional oil resource (at Scav's hill)

Starts-Up map has the Center - it is hill with 1 oil resource and scavenger's base.
Player 1 (top player) have 8 seconds advantage of getting oil resource at center hill.

So list of balance issues of Start-Up map was modified.

StartUp - 1vs1 map
Position of player 1 has disadvantages (it is player at top of map-preview):
-----4 oil resouces at base more vulnerable to attack from hills around.
-----1 oil resource are occupied by scavengers, so player 1 have less oil resources
-----oil resources around base are spreaded and more vulnerable to side attacks than resources of another player
Passages are blockable by factories. Player can build factory in narrow passage and use it as wall.
Player 1 (top player) have 8 seconds advantage of getting oil resource at center hill.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby crab_ » 08 Jan 2014, 20:24

Here is modified version of StartUp map.
I'm bad at map making, but anyway...
2c-StartUp2.wz
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Terminator » 09 Jan 2014, 00:47

I would love to see these "top terrain" entrances to cut off. I mean these ways where units can go straight to enemy base and annoys player from up hills. I believe StartUp - its head-to-head map. :3
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