Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

The place to discuss balance changes for future versions of the game.
(Master releases & 3.X)

Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby crab_ » 10 Jan 2014, 00:48

Alpha93 wrote:
In MP we do not have oil searching actually. If you search for oil in MP game this means you are losing that game. Normal WZ player should remember oil.
We have "Oil remembering". Yes Let's remove "Oil Remembering"!
Remembering oil is boring for people. This is plain fact.

Mostly false statement. Most of the MP games hosted are NTW and unless you ask somebody on IRC or you get extremely you won't get one.

We do not discuss NTW games here.
We are discussing classic low-oil games. We are trying to find ways to make classic games more popular without making it worse.
Oil remembering is one of bad things. It is just hard to remember layout of maps visually.

I do not suggested to change "game mechanics/concept for MP".
If you believe that "Oil remembering" is part of concept then you are wrong.
Actually player have to remember up to 5-10 locations of oil resources (see at current low-oil maps)

Alpha93 wrote:This brings us to my point: no point remembering/searching for oil -> no fight for it. It's not that people "can't" remember where the oil is, even approximately... They DON'T WANT to. And that's a whole different matter.

I repeat: if you search for oil in MP game then you playing wrong way. Normal MP player remember 90% of locations of oil resources on each map he plays.
"Oil searching" is not equal to "Fighting for oil".
If you do oil searching then you almost lost fight for oil because enemy receives 50% energy advantage just by spending 1 truck!!
I know what i'm saying. I won lot of games just because i had "clever" trucks (just because i remembered locations of oil resources while my enemy is not).

Alpha93 wrote:Regarding rockets.Do you use a rocket launcher to kill a person or a handgun? The rocket seems pretty much overkill and as far as I remember, rockets' role is USUALLY antiarmor/antimaterial.
On the other hand, artillery round-type rockets already do plenty of damage to borgs, MRA being the prime example.

One more thing - ripples and lancer have the same upgrades, have similar animation but damage types is very different.
Player cant find in game any clue why ripples behave so different than lancer.
This is one more thing which is wrong.
That damage modifiers do not shown in game but it is vital part. Player can play WZ for years and do not know about propulsion damage modifiers.
http://betaguide.wz2100.net/stats.php?v ... nModifiers

Alpha93 wrote:r do we want to turn in your regular RTS like SC2 or SupCom

pff.. I think you just did not understood my statements correctly.
Anyway - Oil Seraching and Fighting for resources - that part is not unique. Each RTS has that part. Is not it?
Oh. i do not mean to remove that part.

Rman Virgil wrote:Is there anything we can productively agree upon about WZ ?

Seems they do not agree even to make game more involving for new players.
I will repeat all my statements over and over :ninja:
Well. May be i'm wrong in some of my statements. I think ~50% of them should be right XD


Lets return to topic - StartUp meant to be played smoothly for new players. Is not it?
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Alpha93 » 10 Jan 2014, 01:21

Regarding modifiers: I don't think anybody starts playing a game outright without reading a wiki or the provided users' manual. Knowing what's effective against what is part of a RTS, and the game has an ingame link that redirects you to WZ's page. All that's left is to rehost the guide and keep it updated, as I can't remember the last time I was able to access the old guide.

Regarding StartUp: I have a feeling the oil on top of the middle of the hill is perhaps a bit too close to the northern base. Then again you can check that by measuring the distance in tiles.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby NoQ » 10 Jan 2014, 04:44

StartUp meant to be played smoothly for new players. Is not it?
No, i think not. Moreover, it is impossible to achieve that. I think of Startup as a good place to teach new players.
I don't think anybody starts playing a game outright without reading a wiki or the provided users' manual.
Knowing what's effective against what is part of a RTS
You overestimate them. Most of them don't even want to win, you know. Some join multiplayer first thing after installing, not even trying campaign, and then ask hey how do i build a factory.
Then again you can check that by measuring the distance in tiles.
Not that easy, other oils may be farther and that sort of compensates. Whenever both trucks rush to the middle, and the yellow wins, the green takes one or two of the three oils on the north-east. So it's quite tricky.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Rman Virgil » 10 Jan 2014, 13:02

.

Thank's crab for specifically breaking down what you mean by "Common Player" and how you propose a more granular accomodation of thier GP prefs in regards to classic low oil maps.

Just gonna close out my commenting with these last tid bits as a follow up to my earlier posts.

Not sure. I need to read defenition of casual/hardcore gamers.


The links that follow are a 5 minute read, worth the investment (besides, some of it is downright comical). There are sharp distinctions between the opposing camps as well several decades of history predominantly colored by the clashing vested interests. This holds true throughout all game genres.

* Hardcore Gamer

* Casual Gamer

WZ can already satisfy both camps by way of game modes and map design.

WZ creators wanted both camps to make up thier total fan base and provided the means for that in what they were able to do up to Patch v.1.10 before thier development was prematurely shut down (leaving other stuff in development for the game unfinished that would have benifited both segments of gamers).

Here's another bit of relevant info about WZ Maps. The original Pumpkin plan was that there would only be Pumpkin designed maps because they were absolutely commited to NOT releasing thier map editor. Thus they alone would control map design. We spent 2-3 months (April - June '99) of intense discussion with them before they were persuaded to budge from thier position and release Edit World. Within maybe 3 weeks of release, the very first (N)TW style map was created and circulating like a brush fire in a drought parched woodland. The rest is Pandora Box history. ;)

Gotta vamoose from all discussion for a spell to focus on advancing some of my own little WZ constructs. :)
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Alpha93 » 11 Jan 2014, 11:40

NoQ wrote:
I don't think anybody starts playing a game outright without reading a wiki or the provided users' manual.
Knowing what's effective against what is part of a RTS
You overestimate them. Most of them don't even want to win, you know. Some join multiplayer first thing after installing, not even trying campaign, and then ask hey how do i build a factory.
Which brings us back to my point: the issue is not with the game, but with most of the playerbase being more casual than the casual player's definition.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Iluvalar » 12 Jan 2014, 20:05

Rman Virgil wrote:That's got me thinking. What then should be considered, and defined, as the best practical referent to frame any proposed change(s) ? :hmm:
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Applying the 21 tiles per oil ratio rule on the maximum amount of spot.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Rommel » 12 Jan 2014, 21:07

Rman Virgil wrote: Within maybe 3 weeks of release, the very first (N)TW style map was created and circulating like a brush fire in a drought parched woodland. The rest is Pandora Box history. ;)


completely offtopic, but that was funny :lol2: good one man hahahahahaha
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Rman Virgil » 19 Jan 2014, 21:41

Rman Virgil wrote:That's got me thinking. What then should be considered, and defined, as the best practical referent to frame any proposed change(s) ? :hmm:
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Iluvalar wrote:Applying the 21 tiles per oil ratio rule on the maximum amount of spot.


Thanks, Iluvalar, a useful metric to bare in mind, indeed. :)

Rman Virgil wrote: Within maybe 3 weeks of release, the very first (N)TW style map was created and circulating like a brush fire in a drought parched woodland. The rest is Pandora Box history. ;)


Rommel wrote:completely offtopic, but that was funny :lol2: good one man hahahahahaha


In a sense it is OT but sometimes it may be worthwhile sacrificing the reductionist project for a short spell to present the contextual evolution of the subject and, if you can do it with a dollop of fun wit admidst deeply divided PoVs, it could promote equanimity and perhaps a fresh perspective.
That could all be rationalizing hogwash or it could contain more than a grain of truth. ;)
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