Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

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(Master releases & 3.X)

Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby crab_ » 09 Jan 2014, 01:48

Terminator wrote:I would love to see these "top terrain" entrances to cut off. I mean these ways where units can go straight to enemy base and annoys player from up hills. I believe StartUp - its head-to-head map. :3


I understand.
I got very annoyed when enemy did it first time - he built up MG towers at hills near my oil.
Plus StartUp means "map for beginners"
Unfortunately low-oil games are boring and too complex for beginners. I meant: we need a set of improvements to make low-oil games more interesting and easy to love it...
boring_low_oil.png


Start Up is map for advanced players despite on it name.
I think better is make two maps
1) StartUp for pros - (that we have now)
2) StartUp for newbies (remove paths on hills)

I think if we just remove "top entrances" then some old players will be angry.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby NoQ » 09 Jan 2014, 04:42

This guy was never rushed on minute 4? Why do we care what he thinks?

We cannot account for any wrong opinion. Noob vs. Noob matches may proceed in any unpredictable way, it is impossible to make something fun for people who, by definition, can enjoy or hate absolutely random stuff.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Rman Virgil » 09 Jan 2014, 06:30

NoQ wrote:.....

We cannot account for any wrong opinion. Noob vs. Noob matches may proceed in any unpredictable way, it is impossible to make something fun for people who, by definition, can enjoy or hate absolutely random stuff.


That's got me thinking. What then should be considered, and defined, as the best practical referent to frame any proposed change(s) ? :hmm:
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby NoQ » 09 Jan 2014, 07:21

It sorta sounded to me like "Chess 1x1 is boring, i tried it once, and we just went on like
Code: Select all
1. ♘c3 ♞f6
2. ♘b1 ♞g8
3. ♘c3 ♞f6
4. ♘b1 ♞g8
...
This was the most boring game i've ever played, something needs to be done to this, chess board should be fixed, i guess, or team chess should be implemented."
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby montetank » 09 Jan 2014, 10:40

NoQ wrote:It sorta sounded to me like "Chess 1x1 is boring, i tried it once, and we just went on like
Code: Select all
1. ♘c3 ♞f6
2. ♘b1 ♞g8
3. ♘c3 ♞f6
4. ♘b1 ♞g8
...
This was the most boring game i've ever played, something needs to be done to this, chess board should be fixed, i guess, or team chess should be implemented."


Haha-the best reply i ever read in this forum :)
And you are right!
In case the WZ-game ends in a draw , the game winner will be determined by penalty shoot-out.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Rman Virgil » 09 Jan 2014, 13:01

.

I get your point, NoQ, amidst guffaws over preposterous ennui forming the basis of an objective change metric. :) And this is in spite of the fundamental absurdity of literally playing at war making for fun by sanitizing the actual experience out of existence and then taking the whole thing dead serious. :hmm:
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby crab_ » 09 Jan 2014, 13:54

@NoQ Warzone is not a chess. If you want to play chess - then play chess.
NoQ ...more i can say: when you played WZ last time? I see it has became boring for you long time ago

Why you do not understand simple thing - Game could we much more involving for new players without any losses of functionality.
I strongly believe - main task of warzone Dev should be improving ability of game of involving new players, making game more easy understandable.
For example, we have research Tree, which are impossible to remember (but i remembered big part of it after hundred of games). Player never know how good enemy units are.

I remember many guys like Amzo, they said the same things about low-oil games.
I remember when I was new player - i got annoyed by many things and i did not liked low-oil games.
So i think i understand those people. I understand why they like dull high-oil.
NoQ you are high intellectual, but many other people are not.

So, we have map named "StartUp". But only advanced pro-players can take fun of playing this map. Only experienced players can enjoy this map. It is wrong.

NoQ wrote:We cannot account for any wrong opinion. Noob vs. Noob matches may proceed in any unpredictable way, it is impossible to make something fun for people who, by definition, can enjoy or hate absolutely random stuff.

"Common player" is quite existent.
Your statement is not correct. Needs of "common player" are not random. Common player has Common needs :)
Noob should be King of Warzone. He should be able to play. Game should be as a narcotic for him... :ninja:

So. We have Common Player (ordinary player)
It is man who want enjoy warzone. Our task (as devs) - make game enjoyable for common player.

I said this all before. And i will repeat that word over and over.
Here is list of thing which are look wrong for me:
Spoiler:


Sorry, this text is offtopic and this can make flamebatl
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Rman Virgil » 09 Jan 2014, 15:03

.

Let's backtrack for a sec here....

For decades now, Gamers have been divided into 2 catagories: Hardcore Gamer and Casual Gamer. Both have become well defined over the past 3 decades.

You introduce the term "Common Player".

What exactly does that mean in relation to the 2 historical classifications ?

As I'm reading it, and I could very well be wrong, there is a cross pollinating between the 2 traditional catagories which would be a postulation melding highly disparate temperments, at least on the surface, yielding something of a paradox it would seem. :hmm:

WZ has 3 game modes: CAM, SP Ski and MP. Right now, insofar as I understand WZ, the first 2 modes naturally appeal to the "Casual Gamer" and the 3rd mode, to the "Hardcore Gamer". If I'm reading you correctly, the changes proposed would, in effect, be an effort to make MP mode more appealing to the "Casual Gamer" (?) [A rather long laundry list of fundamental and non-trivial changes, to boot.]

BTW, the Urban Dictionary has some insightful definitions of these 2 catagories of gamers.

.
Last edited by Rman Virgil on 09 Jan 2014, 17:28, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby crab_ » 09 Jan 2014, 15:49

Rman Virgil wrote:.
If I'm reading you correctly, the changes proposed would, in effect, be an effort to make MP mode more appealing to the "Casual Gamer" (?)

Not sure. I need to read defenition of casual/hardcore gamers.


I said my statement from my experience of gaming.

Lets see.
Common players want to fight. He do not want to search oil.
Common player want to upgrade his stuff and receive bonus proportional to spent money/time. But in fact few cheap upgrades are vital while other upgrades are can be skipped.
Common player want to see research paths. He do not like to remember anything.
Common player do not understand why Machinegun tower armed with weapon which did not researched yet (Heavy Machinegun). And he do not understand why you need research MG bunker to open research of MG Hardpoint.
Common player do not like to remember map.
Common player cant understand why Big Rocket cannot kill small cyborg :)

Common player is normal man, who likes war games.
Warzone is not OilZone.

I see many common players in MP lobby.
And i see only few hardcore gamers (like NoQ).

[to be continued]

I do not have too much experience in playing RTS. So i feel myself as common player.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Alpha93 » 09 Jan 2014, 16:42

crab_ wrote:It is man who want enjoy warzone. Our task (as devs) - make game enjoyable for common player.

I said this all before. And i will repeat that word over and over.
-snip-
tl;dr
Warzone 2100 has to become more dull than it already is with the certain type map spam in MP.
The only bad thing I can agree with is the GUI issue but since it's hardcoded not much can be done about it at this time.
Common players want to fight. He do not want to search oil.
-snip-
Common player do not like to remember map.
Common player cant understand why Big Rocket cannot kill small cyborg :)

Common player is normal man, who likes war games.
Warzone is not OilZone.

Well, let's remove all the searching for oil (and the subsequent fight for the control of it), give rockets a 400% damage multiplier against borgs, flat maps (NTW) are already there... am I missing something?
If WZ2100 ever takes that turn, I'm done with this game. Even though it has kept me entertained for almost 15 years (since the PSX demo was released) along with C&C and Homeworld series. I, for one, am not going to play WZ like a brainless monkey.
PS: cut the quotes because /walloftext.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby NoQ » 09 Jan 2014, 17:33

Amez wrote:... being far too balanced
just dragged in on for ages and ages and ages ...

So tell me crab_, how are we supposed to fix a problem that doesn't even exist, for we all know that low oil 1x1 games do not drag for ages (and are actually very short)? We could probably put all oil in the center to make them even shorter?...
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby crab_ » 09 Jan 2014, 17:49

Alpha93 wrote:Well, let's remove all the searching for oil

In MP we do not have oil searching actually. If you search for oil in MP game this means you are losing that game. Normal WZ player should remember oil.
We have "Oil remembering". Yes Let's remove "Oil Remembering"!
Remembering oil is boring for people. This is plain fact.

Alpha93 wrote:and the subsequent fight for the control of it

Who said "warzone if fight for oil" ?
Do we see fighting for oil in original campaign? No. We see fight for technologies.
Why warzone turned from fight for tech to fight for oil? I do not know history and i did not played in first MP
I agree. Fight for resources is main thing in RTS. I just said Game should motivate people to play.

Alpha93 wrote:ive rockets a 400% damage multiplier against borgs,

Again you try to make my statements "stupefied". :augh:
I did not said rockets should have 400% to cyborgs.
I just said: it is hard to understand why rockets should be weak against cyborgs. Game should inform players about this fact everywhere.
May be cyborgs should be renamed to "Anti-Rocket Shield". For Example "MG Cyborg" can be renamed to "Anti-rocket shield armed with MG" :ninja:

Alpha93 wrote:am I missing something?

Yes. You missed all and messed up all.

Alpha93 wrote:If WZ2100 ever takes that turn, I'm done with this game.

I think better involve 10 new players than trying to keep 1 old hysterical player...
Last edited by crab_ on 09 Jan 2014, 17:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby crab_ » 09 Jan 2014, 17:53

NoQ wrote:
Amez wrote:... being far too balanced
just dragged in on for ages and ages and ages ...

So tell me crab_, how are we supposed to fix a problem that doesn't even exist, for we all know that low oil 1x1 games do not drag for ages (and are actually very short)? We could probably put all oil in the center to make them even shorter?...


I do not understand what you mean.
I did not said I agreed with words of Amzo.
So your question is incorrect. I did not said anything about average time of game.
Ok. I got bored for now. I think i have bad english and you are clever people and you just cannot understand my statements correctly.
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Alpha93 » 09 Jan 2014, 19:15

First of all, thank you for calling me hysterical, even though you do not have the facts to back it up, but I won't discuss it further as it is not what we're discussing here.
In MP we do not have oil searching actually. If you search for oil in MP game this means you are losing that game. Normal WZ player should remember oil.
We have "Oil remembering". Yes Let's remove "Oil Remembering"!
Remembering oil is boring for people. This is plain fact.

Mostly false statement. Most of the MP games hosted are NTW and unless you ask somebody on IRC or you get extremely you won't get one. On NTW, all of the tactics are basically denied, knowledge of the game is made useless as it resorts to spam of 3 or 4 kind of weapons at most (HMG/ MR and the Lancer/ HPV/ Mortar in early game - AG/HC-HPV/GS/Ripple Rockets/TK in mid game and in late game it boils down to whoever gets Archangels and Gauss first, since lasers are pretty much an AP weapon). Whoever spams the most wins. And it's a outright straight fact.
This brings us to my point: no point remembering/searching for oil -> no fight for it. It's not that people "can't" remember where the oil is, even approximately... They DON'T WANT to. And that's a whole different matter.
Regarding rockets.Do you use a rocket launcher to kill a person or a handgun? The rocket seems pretty much overkill and as far as I remember, rockets' role is USUALLY antiarmor/antimaterial.
On the other hand, artillery round-type rockets already do plenty of damage to borgs, MRA being the prime example.

tl;dr: change the game mechanics/concept for MP, and this game won't be so unique anymore. It'll simply become "your regular RTS, just open-source". Now the question is: do we really want this game to lose its being unique in its genre, or do we want to turn in your regular RTS like SC2 or SupCom? I won't say that both these games weren't a success because they were/are, but they aren't flawless either. On the other hand, WZ has much stuff that both of them don't have (putting aside WZ2100's dated game engine).
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Re: Maps (pre-installed maps balance issues)

Postby Rman Virgil » 09 Jan 2014, 23:14

.

Oy vey ! If I may quote a famous Yiddish expression of dismay. ;)

Is there anything we can productively agree upon about WZ ? :shock: :augh:

How about this as a tentative reboot of the discussion ? :hmm:

* WZ is a uniquely complex RTS in the history of the genre.

* Most fans of the game would like to see its audience continuously grow and have deep seated notions about how that can be achieved.

* Through sheer map making design, without any binary changes, WZ MP can be enjoyed in diametrically opposed ways by gamers with entirely different temperments and tastes in GP.

* Why is this last, the status quo for 14 years, the source of deeply abiding conflict and a compelling desire by some to wanna implement certain changes in the distro and by others to oppose any such recourse ?

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