Artillery (Mortars,Howitzers) in low-oil games are not usabl

[crab_]

Hello.

Friends, can you say what is role of artillery in low-oil games?
I see Artillery is not ised in most low-oil games.

Note: Artillery = weapons from Mortar line, Howitzer line, plus Ripple Rockets, plus Archangel Rockets.
Mini-Rocket array are not used as artillery because it has very short range of fire.

List of artillery weapons below:

• Mortar. Mortar is too weak and usage mortars on low-oil is waste of money.
• Grenadier cyborg. Too weak.
• Bombard. Too expensive and weak.
• Pepperpot. Too expensive and weak.
• Incendiary mortar. Have use on low-oil. can be used effective against cyborgs and hovercraft unit but inc.mortar requires research of flamer upgrades and has high price.
• Ripple Rockets. Too weak and too expensive for low-oil games. Range advantage is not effective on most low-oil maps.
• Howitzer. Too weak.
• Ground Shaker. Too expensive. Players should research mortar and howitzer line to get Ground Shaker. Most low-oil games do not last long enough to get Ground Shaker in use.
• Hellstorm. Too expensive. Players should research mortar and howitzer line to get Hellstorm. Most low-oil games do not last long enough to get Ground Shaker in use.
• Incendiary Howitzer. I do not know.
• Archangel. Too weak. Most low-oil games do not last long enough.

Role of artillery

• Destroy defenses from long range. This role not needed because defensive structures not used so much in low-oil games.
• Destroy cyborgs and hovercraft. Cyborgs can be easily killed by Machineguns. Machineguns are much better in this role.
• Attack enemy from far position and provoke to attack. This role is just waste of money in low-oil games.
• [update]Kill wounded units.

Incendiary Mortar is the one artillery weapon which usable on low-oil. All other artillery weapons are useless.

[Berg]

Incendiary Mortar is the one artillery weapon which usable on low-oil. All other artillery weapons are useless.

I think this is a very broad statement without merit.
Just because you write it don’t make it true, I have often used ripples and other artillery on low oil maps.

[crab_]

Incendiary Mortar is the one artillery weapon which usable on low-oil. All other artillery weapons are useless.

I think this is a very broad statement without merit.
Just because you write it don’t make it true, I have often used ripples and other artillery on low oil maps.

I say things which are noticed by me and other players.
Berg, I know your style of playing. Unfortunately your style of playing do not lead team to victory. It is funny to use Ripples on low-oil but this move is bad for your team. I think some teammates in team-game can be angry if they see your ripples. Do you understand Ripples is just waste of money in low-oil games?
Ok if you disagree i can state you as "semiskilled" player

I agree in some cases ripples can be usable, in 1 game from 100 may be

[Alpha93]

They are not usable because:
1) Low oil maps are usually small, hence there's no need for them.
2) The scarce amount of defenses built do not justify a need for them.

One thing would be to make turtling actually possible in low oil, or rather justifying building any defense at all.
Early-game hardpoints are quite weak, so the idea would be to make the hardcrete upgrades available earlier.

[crab_]

They are not usable because:
1) Low oil maps are usually small, hence there's no need for them.

Mortars could be usable on small low-oil maps,
For example, Mortar could be used as anti-cyborg addition to pure rocket army.
Unfortunately Mortar is too weak. 20 mortars hardly to kill 1 python unit.

[Alpha93]

Not like a small caliber howitzer can kill a tank irl either.

[NoQ]

irl

IRL buildings aren't build out of wirelessly transferred electricity with blue beams.
It isn't even year 2100 IRL.

[NoQ]

On topic:

One actually useful function of mortars is significantly increased fire concentration they achieve. You can target any enemy unit in any point of enemy army. Enemy cannot block your fire by moving other units in front of your target. You have range that is larger than typical diameter of enemy army. With that, if you manage to get any significant mortar DPS, no wounded unit would have a chance to return for repair, boosting chance-to-kill significantly.

Such fire concentration is possible not only with mortar tanks, but also with mortar pits via sensor tank.

Even though mortar damage modifiers may be similar to that of machinegun or MRA, their range makes their function significantly different. I believe mortar should not be balanced only as siege and turtle weapons, but also as normal combat weapons. With increased range and concentration effect described above, they become much more anti-tank than MRAs. With slow reload and nice modifiers against hovers, they make a good counter to rocket hit-and-run.

[crab_]

On topic:
You can target any enemy unit in any point of enemy army.

This is not quite correct. When you fight with enemy you can see only part of enemy army.
You need move your army forward to see "any pooint of enemy army" but in this case you lose ability to retreat.
I mean: if you moved closer yo enemy then it makes hard to retreat for your units.

I agree with overall idea. Mortars can be good in killing damaged retreating enemy units.
So mortar units can serve as 3rd component if you combined forces.
Note: mortars require different micro-management cause they cannto fire on move.

But here is problem still - mortars too weak. Damage of mortars are less noticeable.

Even though mortar damage modifiers may be similar to that of machinegun or MRA, their range makes their function significantly different.

Mortar damage is must lesser than damage of MRA or MGs.

With slow reload and nice modifiers against hovers, they make a good counter to rocket hit-and-run.

I think mortar army cannot counter mini-pod/cobra/hover. Need check it.

ROF upgrades in Mortar line come too late. So Mortar can have good base damage but it have bad dynamic of upgrades.

So we found new interesting role of mortars - kill retreting units.

But there is problem. Mortar damage to weak to be useful in low-oil. Plus mortars become outdated very fast. I mean you can research better stuff than mortars.

[NoQ]

When you fight with enemy you can see only part of enemy army.

Mortars won't work well without sensors, anyway.

I mean: if you moved closer yo enemy then it makes hard to retreat for your units.

Not really. Normally, in order to be able to to retreat, you only need to cover wounded units with healthy units. Ease of retreat depends not on distance, but on movement direction: when you move towards enemy, it's easier to cover wounded units, as all units anyway naturally move forward to cover them. When you run away, wounded units end up behind. Also, mortars themselves don't need to stay in range.

Mortar damage is must lesser than damage of MRA or MGs.

Mortar damage to weak to be useful in low-oil.

As usual, when i talk about function, i talk about what i want it to be, not what it is now. Now they are useless, of course, nothing to discuss about now. But when i saw NullBot3 use mortars more or less properly from time to time in some tests (this sort of micromanagement is trivial for an AI), it looked pretty cool and i liked it. I wish it were possible.

[crab_]

Mortars won't work well without sensors, anyway

Mortars work great in patrol-mode. They use each every unit and building as sensor.
Sensor unit can possibly increase range of vision. hmm for me it is just too hard to use both attack units and sensors.. Sensors requires money\production time and they make my army to do less damage per tile.

Not really. Normally, in order to be able to to retreat, you only need to cover wounded units with healthy units. Ease of retreat depends not on distance, but on movement direction: when you move towards enemy, it's easier to cover wounded units, as all units anyway naturally move forward to cover them. When you run away, wounded units end up behind. Also, mortars themselves don't need to stay in range.

I agree. But in some cases you cannot move forward. For example if you play with rockets you dont like move forward because rockets have less HP and you need range advantage.
Sometimes moving forward means lose territory (chokepoint) advantage.

As usual, when i talk about function, i talk about what i want it to be, not what it is now. Now they are useless, of course, nothing to discuss about now. But when i saw NullBot3 use mortars more or less properly from time to time in some tests (this sort of micromanagement is trivial for an AI), it looked pretty cool and i liked it. I wish it were possible.

Ok. It was topic of this thread. Now i see one more interesting function of artillery units. Thank you.

So lets discuss how we can made mortars more usable in low-oil games.
I'm afraid this requires too much changes.
In my balance-patch i've suggested to increase mortar damage.

[Rommel]

I think the HP of the mortar is too low, even rocket pod has higher hit points and you would think a mortar would be more "solid" than a rocket. I have been messing around with mortar units lately and they are quite nice to use - trouble is that they can be quickly annihilated, although if you can mass them up a bit they are quite formidable.

My thoughts with mortar would be to drop incendiary mortar damage somehow and give more HP to all Mortar turrets.

[crab_]

I think the HP of the mortar is too low, even rocket pod has higher hit points and you would think a mortar would be more "solid" than a rocket.

Mortar Cobra Half-tracks - 632 hp
Lancer Cobra Half-tracks - 656 hp

[Rommel]

hmmm I might have been looking at the old stats, but it seems they have only 5 hitpoints... (the turret it's self I mean)

[crab_]

hmmm I might have been looking at the old stats, but it seems they have only 5 hitpoints... (the turret it's self I mean)

Turret HP is only part of total HP of unit.
5 hitpoints and 30 hitpoints it is the same almost.
Cannont turrerts have 300-500 hitpoints.