Balancing Balance

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Balancing Balance

Postby vexed » 09 Dec 2013, 04:41

It has become painfully obvious that the way people play the game, and what is enable / disabled skews everything about Warzone's balance.

What I mean is, we got people who cry foul because their battles turn into arty wars. Thus, they think the only solution is to nerf arty's.
Then we got people saying that weapon X is over powered compared to weapon Y, but they don't realize that weapon Z (which is usually VTOLs) can be used to take out weapon X, or the fact that the next upgrade to Y is needed...
The list of examples can go on & on, based on map, and oil preference.

I firmly believe that the only way to really play Warzone is to NOT limit anything that isn't ON by default.
That means, no disabling LaSat, no disabling VTOLs, and so on.

Warzone has a tech tree that isn't supposed to be 1:1 between each tech types, it is supposed to be staggered up until the end, to force people to mix different techs.

I am strongly contemplating removing the limits option in MP games (not skirmish), to enable all games to have the full ambiance that Warzone offers, and not limit it, thus skewing balance attempts that have been made in the past, and in the future.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Per » 09 Dec 2013, 09:49

I've been thinking the same thing in the past.

One option that could make life easier for us as developers and at the same time life better for players, would be to make it much easier to load small mods. For example if we make it the same as selecting a map. That way people who want to play with certain restrictions can just load a mod, and the game would be announced as non-standard right off the bat.

Don't think we should remove limits without providing an alternative like the above, though.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Bertram » 09 Dec 2013, 11:19

You mean:

"You changed the standard tech tree in your game preferences, this game is now considered a mod, so don't complain about balance?"

Sounds fair.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby crab_ » 09 Dec 2013, 13:00

Hello.

vexed wrote:Then we got people saying that weapon X is over powered compared to weapon Y, but they don't realize that weapon Z (which is usually VTOLs) can be used to take out weapon X, or the fact that the next upgrade to Y is needed...


There is no case when VTOL is used to counter some another thing like artillery. Who said that?
I mean You cannot counter artillery with VTOLs because artillery have long range and can be easily defended with AA.
I hope i'm speaking clear..

Historically Warzone balance was tuned good only for first 10-20 minutes of game on classic maps.
Stuff which are not used in first 10-20 minutes on start-up map was not balanced good

Why people set VTOL off
People set VTOLs to off because they think VTOL is unbalanced. We do not have some 'VTOL-alert'. Enemies can make hundreds VTOLs silently and destroy all your stuff in one attack.
VTOL attack makes people angry. I remember cases when i was kicked from game after i attacked with VTOLs.
I think we need VTOL-Alert-Tower which should detect enemy VTOLs in large area and alert players about VTOLs.

Why people set LasSat off
I think people set LasSat to off because LasSat is just annoys them.

We never had good balance in artillery/vtol
VTOL weapons are unbalanced. Some VTOL weapon are overpowered while other VTOL weapon are useless.
Artillery useless on low-oil games and overpowered in team high-oil games.
Note: artilery is not overpowered in 1vs1 high-oil. In 1vs1 artillery cannot save you from good tank attack (but yes this depend on maps and width of chokepoints)

vexed wrote:Warzone has a tech tree that isn't supposed to be 1:1 between each tech types, it is supposed to be staggered up until the end, to force people to mix different techs.

Tech tree provokes use of one or two tech lines all game.
e.g. if you selected rockets then use them to the end, but it can be more useful mix rockets with machineguns.
so if you use rockets+MGs you not need other tech, not need artillery, not need flamers, cannons, lasers etc.
2 tech is quite enough.
But in high-oil games you play in team and team can research all tech.


vexed wrote:I am strongly contemplating removing the limits option in MP games, to enable all games to have the full ambiance that Warzone offers, and not limit it, thus skewing balance attempts that have been made in the past, and in the future.


Removing limits can make some people angry.

Ok. I agree limits can be turned to mods.
We need some place in UI where player can see description of loaded mod. E.g. if i join map-mod game then i need to read description of what was changed in mod.

(sorry for bad english)
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Alpha93 » 09 Dec 2013, 14:59

crab_ wrote:Why people set VTOL off
People set VTOLs to off because they think VTOL is unbalanced. We do not have some 'VTOL-alert'. Enemies can make hundreds VTOLs silently and destroy all your stuff in one attack.
VTOL attack makes people angry. I remember cases when i was kicked from game after i attacked with VTOLs.
I think we need VTOL-Alert-Tower which should detect enemy VTOLs in large area and alert players about VTOLs.

Strongly against this, people really need to remember that a player can get VTOLs at any time and should develop the counter to them, since you get the Hurricane ready to be res'd after what, 3-5 minutes into the game by researching MGs? Also, this would negate the whole point of scouting the enemy positions.
That said, if people get angry over VTOLs, they're just being butthurt for being bad strategists. Ignore said people and laugh.

Checked the research times for VTOL and AA.
Hurricane can be obtained by the 7:30 mark while VTOLs can be obtained by the 11:30 mark. 4 minutes are enough to get the Hurricane AA site and a few AA upgrades researched.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby crab_ » 09 Dec 2013, 15:47

You are saying player should make AA in all cases, but it is wrong! AA => spending of power => less army => lose.
Note: You cannot spend too much money on AA. It is roulette - who can guess better. If you do not expect VTOL attack then you can make more tanks.

Currently VTOL is random thing. Sometime it works great and sometimes enemy guessed your VTOL attack and prepared plenty of AA.
Usage of VTOLs increases randomness of the game.
VTOL-Alert-Tower would make us able to implement balance in VTOL weapons.
In current balance we cannot make VTOLs stronger because it will make VTOLs overpowered in certain cases.

Alpha93 wrote:That said, if people get angry over VTOLs, they're just being butthurt for being bad strategists. Ignore said people and laugh.

I played many games and i had won many games with proper usage of VTOLs. I laughed every time on poor enemies those forgot to make AA.
I'm saying about making Warzone more friendly for people. Stop hardcore!
Each player should be 'catched' by game! We should make game for all.
Currently WZ is game for advanced people like programmers. Maybe I'm wrong? I see too much advanced users here :)

Note2: AA hurricane and whirlwind requires own line of research.
Hurricane AA without upgrades = very weak AA.
So you need spend power and "cell in research center". You can research, for example, more armor or more power income instead of AA.

Note3: you can scount for enemy VTOLs only if you have your own VTOLs.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Alpha93 » 09 Dec 2013, 17:45

crab_ wrote:Note3: you can scount for enemy VTOLs only if you have your own VTOLs.
Sensor turret - any body - hover/wheels is a great unit for scouting for preemptive strikes.
This is what is sad about NTW: everybody forgets about scouting and what not, just builds tons of sensors/CB towers.
Scouting, oil securing and territory surveillance are like the basics of the basics. It's a question that has been leaving me wondering for as long as I started gaming: if you're no good at something and you don't get better despite how hard you try, why keep bothering? I gave up myself on things I couldn't get good at, it's not like you're going to lose your "e-honor".

Giving players a way to know when somebody else is building VTOLs is denying the whole point of scouting the enemy position, keeping your true strength hidden and diversion tactics.
Res VTOL-Alert - "Oh enemy is building VTOLs, gotta get AA asap" - VTOLs neutered - GG WP. This is so utterly wrong. If you got wasted by VTOLs, you deserved it because you couldn't/didn't bother to expect/predict it. Expect the enemies to exploit whatever they got at hand and learn from your mistake.
Sorry, I'm not going to ever agree on making the players' life so easy.

Regarding advanced players: you know, there's this thing called "Experience". You obtain it by learning from your mistakes and successes. A loss teaches WAY MORE than a win though.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby crab_ » 09 Dec 2013, 20:31

Alpha93 wrote:Sensor turret - any body - hover/wheels is a .

You cannot scount deep into enemy base with standard sensor. VTOL units can be produced hidden.

Alpha93 wrote:This is what is sad about NTW: everybody forgets about scouting and what not, just builds tons of sensors/CB towers.

On NTW maps you cannot scount enemy bases after certain stage of game.
Dunno why you telling about NTW. I thought you hate high-oil :)

Alpha93 wrote:Giving players a way to know when somebody else is building VTOLs is denying the whole point of scouting the enemy position, keeping your true strength hidden and diversion tactics.

This statement is not correct. Even if you know about VTOLs you cannot protect all stuff with AA (base, several oil resources around base, your army)
Enemy can make 1 VTOL unit to make you scary and next he will attack you with tank army while you expecting VTOLs and you will lose game.

My idea - add new type of sensor which are specialized to scouting for vtols. For example, that new sensor will be able to detect enemy VTOLs in range of 30 tiles. Another idea - make alert when first enemy VTOL factory was finished. Ok This is 'raw' idea, I do not insist on this idea. Why just reject?


Note: in 2.3.x series we were able to see each last produced unit of each player in game, so using of VTOLs was predictable but in same time VTOLs was greatly overpowered.


I believe there should be a reason why people set VTOL off constantly
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Alpha93 » 09 Dec 2013, 20:57

crab_ wrote:Enemy can make 1 VTOL unit to make you scary and next he will attack you with tank army while you expecting VTOLs and you will lose game.
Which falls, again, into the "deceive your enemy" part of modern warfare aka intelligence and counterintelligence.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Per » 09 Dec 2013, 23:10

crab_ wrote:Enemies can make hundreds VTOLs silently and destroy all your stuff in one attack.

That should not be possible if the other player spends equal amount of resources on land attacks. Then he should be forced to use the VTOLs he builds to defend, or lose. And then his strategy is revealed.

Note that I say 'should'. I do not know if this is the case now.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Jorzi » 09 Dec 2013, 23:48

My experience is that developing/building VTOL:s takes a notable bit of power and research time, leaving a player vulnerable to ground attacks. If you're not able to exploit this, you would probably have lost anyway. I understand, of course, the newbie's frustration when he lives in the illusion he's doing ok until he gets wiped out in a single moment. It gives the illusion that this is somehow more unfair than being steamrolled by good ol' tanks.

This of course doesn't apply to NTW where you're a fool if you don't build and expect everything.

Edit: what Per just said :)
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-insert deep philosophical statement here-
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby crab_ » 10 Dec 2013, 00:39

Per wrote:That should not be possible if the other player spends equal amount of resources on land attacks. Then he should be forced to use the VTOLs he builds to defend, or lose.

Do you saying about flat maps where one player can send all resources in one attack at the same time?
We also have maps with narrow chokepoints.
On some maps player can stay on well-defended position and it makes him able to spend some money on vtol-stuff.

This is all right. In competitive ("pro") games both armies keep attacking each other all time and they do not have possibility to make lots of VTOLs hidden.
But in "noob-game" players can prepare their forces for attack for some time. Also we have ffa-games where each player can do anything and you cannot control 'money-level' of all your opponents.

Jorzi wrote: I understand, of course, the newbie's frustration when he lives in the illusion he's doing ok until he gets wiped out in a single moment. It gives the illusion that this is somehow more unfair than being steamrolled by good ol' tanks.

I believe Warzone should be more friendly to new players.
VTOLs is thing which should be learned how to use. I see many players do not use VTOL because they do not know how use it.

Note: People make VTOL disabled in high-oil games. This issue with VTOL is applicable to high-oil games.
hmm.. People just do not play low-oil so i do not know are they enablie or disable VTOLs in low-oil :)

VTOLs weapons are not tuned good, and most of them are useless. So this discussion is useless. My idea with VTOL-Alert is idea how make VTOLs less random thus making us able to tune VTOL weapons.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby vexed » 10 Dec 2013, 04:51

crab_ wrote:My idea - add new type of sensor which are specialized to scouting for vtols. For example, that new sensor will be able to detect enemy VTOLs in range of 30 tiles. Another idea - make alert when first enemy VTOL factory was finished. Ok This is 'raw' idea, I do not insist on this idea. Why just reject?

Note: in 2.3.x series we were able to see each last produced unit of each player in game, so using of VTOLs was predictable but in same time VTOLs was greatly overpowered.

I believe there should be a reason why people set VTOL off constantly

Why stop there ? We should have a early warning system for when people make cyborg factories, units better than yours, and hard points, just to inform you that you need to counter those...

The game is about tactics and if you remove a whole chunk of the tech tree since people can't handle having the full tech tree enabled means that they are scared of discovering new things, and heaven forbid, to change tactics on the fly.
All high oil games I have seen are a pure race to see who can research that fastest on a pretty straight path, all the time. Since VTOLs are disabled in pretty much all those type of games, there is less thinking going on, and lots of people crying about how unfair weapon X is as I stated before.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby crab_ » 11 Dec 2013, 10:44

vexed wrote:Why stop there ? We should have a early warning system for when people make cyborg factories, units better than yours, and hard points, just to inform you that you need to counter those...

In 2.3.x versions of Warzone we had that via unit preview :)
Old players said VTOLs was constantly disabled in Gamy Spy Warzone.

VTOLs are absolute fast and they can attack any place on map in few seconds. So it can be useful to have some notifications.
Also it is quite real: VTOL is object in sky and can be easily detected, while land object are hidden behind hills and cannot be detected.


vexed wrote:The game is about tactics and if you remove a whole chunk of the tech tree since people can't handle having the full tech tree enabled means that they are scared of discovering new things, and heaven forbid, to change tactics on the fly.

I agree.
VTOL is thing which is hard to learn and hard to manage.
Unit management is not best in Warzone.
Note: many people to not like to read game keybord shortcuts. It is impossible to use VTOLs without "Ctrl+V"

Game should be more friendly to folks.
Currently we have game with lots of hidden parameters, great Research Tree which is impossible to rememeber for many people, thousand combinations of unit design.

Game is about game.
Tactics become discovered and tested when players actually play game.
When many people plays game then more tactic paths become discovered.
  • Less People => worse tactics.
  • More people => better tactics.
  • More fiendly game => more people => better tactics
    (a'm afraid this is not quire uderstandable with my bad english)
.
vexed wrote:All high oil games I have seen are a pure race to see who can research that fastest on a pretty straight path, all the time. Since VTOLs are disabled in pretty much all those type of games, there is less thinking going on, and lots of people crying about how unfair weapon X is as I stated before.

This is not correct. Crying about unfair weapon X do not related to switched off VTOLs.
VTOL is set of different weapons e.g. VTOL Cannons totally useless while VTOL bombs are pretty usable.

ColinEt wrote:По моему мнению Вы допускаете ошибку. Могу это доказать..

Доказывай.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby themac » 11 Dec 2013, 11:27

Some parts of the discussion mind me of the StarCraft 2 online play. Some people tell me to always make some protoss canons. But if the zerglings won´t come, you loose time and money and you will have less army soon. So I personally thing it is also a matter of luck.

To speak about VTOL´s: Yes, sometimes they seem to be overpowered. But sometimes not. In some cases you send 10 VTOL´s, 8 of them get lost and they all did not kill at least one structure.
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