Balancing Balance

The place to discuss balance changes for future versions of the game.
(Master releases & 3.X)

Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Alpha93 » 11 Dec 2013, 15:24

crab_ wrote:VTOL is set of different weapons e.g. VTOL Cannons totally useless while VTOL bombs are pretty usable.
Say that again when a unit gets nuked in 2-3 hits of VTOL HPV cannon or VTOL needle/rail gun.
Multiply that by 10 VTOL and you get a squad capable of decimating a 15-tank team in no time with the 15 tanks being unable to retaliate.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby crab_ » 11 Dec 2013, 15:36

Alpha93 wrote:
crab_ wrote:VTOL is set of different weapons e.g. VTOL Cannons totally useless while VTOL bombs are pretty usable.
Say that again when a unit gets nuked in 2-3 hits of VTOL HPV cannon or VTOL needle/rail gun.
Multiply that by 10 VTOL and you get a squad capable of decimating a 15-tank team in no time with the 15 tanks being unable to retaliate.


Alpha, are you sure?
Lets see.
VTOL HPC Cannon - 350 damage per shot (research time 18:00)
Python half-tracks Medum Cannon: 2100 Hit Points and 44 armor.
VTOL HPV Cannon have ALL ROUNDER damage modifier => 115% damage to half-tracks
350*1,15 - 44 = 358
VTOL HPV Cannon has 4 shots.
358*4 = 1432 damage per reload.

10 VTOL with HPC Cannon have total 358*4*10 =14320 damage
15 tanks Python Med.Cannon Half-tracks have 31350 hit points.
15 tanks Python Lancer Half-track have 20460 hit points

So you are wrong, 15 HPV Vtols cannot kill 15 land tanks.
Note: lancer cyborgs can kill you vtols easily because Lancer tanks usually move with lancer borgs.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Rommel » 11 Dec 2013, 17:24

Alpha93 wrote:It's a question that has been leaving me wondering for as long as I started gaming: if you're no good at something and you don't get better despite how hard you try, why keep bothering?


Sorry to take this a bit off topic, but I just had to say that this kind of statement is dangerous - it kind of implies that nothing is worth doing unless you are good at it. This is just plain wrong and reeks of elitism. I am a mediocre player of WZ at best, sometimes I win, sometimes I lose - while it is nice to win, it is not the main reason I play, the main reason I play WZ is because it is fun.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Alpha93 » 11 Dec 2013, 17:31

Mine is more like a philosophy along the lines "Stop bothering if it doesn't produce results". If you don't improve, why don't you ask for help from somebody who knows? Most of the MP players don't even know what IRC is though.
Saying that learning to playing decently and the watching the results isn't satisfying is as much of a dangerous statement as mine, imho.
@crab_: no time doesn't imply you're not going to reload. And HPV reload for VTOLs is fairly fast. Probably takes 30 seconds to hit, reload then hit again. I've never bothered to check the reloading speeds, but I know it's fast enough to allow the use of HPV cannons (or cannons in general) as ground attack aircraft.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Rommel » 11 Dec 2013, 17:44

vexed wrote:I am strongly contemplating removing the limits option in MP games (not skirmish), to enable all games to have the full ambiance that Warzone offers, and not limit it, thus skewing balance attempts that have been made in the past, and in the future.


So let me get this right, you want to remove a configuration feature because people use it in a way which you personally don't like? Some people "like" to disable VTOL, etc - some people don't... so what? Why not get over it and let people play the game the way they want without getting all dictator about it. I just can't understand the reasoning behind this statement sorry... why not just put a disclaimer there saying "this game is balanced for default settings, we are not responsible for balance issues if the settings are changed". Why not do this instead of removing a feature that contributors spent considerable time and effort implementing.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Rommel » 11 Dec 2013, 17:47

Alpha93 wrote:Saying that learning to playing decently and the watching the results isn't satisfying is as much of a dangerous statement as mine, imho.

I didn't say that.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Alpha93 » 11 Dec 2013, 17:53

You didn't, but I felt it was implied. If that was not the case, I'll excuse myself.
Regarding the disabled feature, imho the LasSat is the only thing that is rightfully disabled, as it's more a nuisance than everything else.
@crab: is that the basic damage for the HPV cannon? Because a APFSDS upgraded HPV cannon hits WAY harder than 70 on the ground version and 140 on VTOL one.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Rommel » 11 Dec 2013, 18:03

Alpha93 wrote:You didn't, but I felt it was implied. If that was not the case, I'll excuse myself.
Regarding the disabled feature, imho the LasSat is the only thing that is rightfully disabled, as it's more a nuisance than everything else.


I most certainly didn't mean to imply that, half the fun for me is in the learning :)
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby crab_ » 11 Dec 2013, 18:12

Alpha93 wrote:@crab_: no time doesn't imply you're not going to reload. And HPV reload for VTOLs is fairly fast. Probably takes 30 seconds to hit, reload then hit again. I've never bothered to check the reloading speeds, but I know it's fast enough to allow the use of HPV cannons (or cannons in general) as ground attack aircraft.


One of great disadvantages of VTOL cannons - slow rate of fire.
VTOL Cannons require certain time to shot their ammo on enemy.
Few AA-weapon can easily kill your VTOL Cannons.
e.g. if you attack army of cannons mixed with machineguns you will lose 1-2 attacking VTOl-unit each attack.

You know, better use of your HPV VTOL is attack oil resources and base buildings. It is more safer and bothers enemy more.
I've tried to use VTOL cannon in several games and i see them as underpowered. And i do not remember games when other players used VTOL Cannons...

I tested reload time of VTOL Cobra HPV Cannon on Sk_Rush T2 (small map)
Reload time - 1 minute and 5 seconds = 23 damage per second (this is twice lesser than DPS of land HPV Cannon)
Then i cheated "research all" and in this case reload time became 30 seconds.
On larger maps reload time will more.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby anonim17465 » 19 Dec 2013, 12:12

I can offer "simple game mod", where are maximum 4 factories, 2 cyborg factories, 0-1 VTOL factory, no LasSat, no concrete walls.
That's the heaven for bad strategs players, that's what they want. I'm not going to play in such mod, but I saw a lot of people, who want all of this, because they don't want to think about it.

But in big games I would like to see no limits, instead I want to pay some energy for buildings upkeep. So, 20 factories would be possible, but expensive.
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Re: Balancing Balance

Postby Iluvalar » 20 Dec 2013, 18:16

Per wrote:
crab_ wrote:Enemies can make hundreds VTOLs silently and destroy all your stuff in one attack.

That should not be possible if the other player spends equal amount of resources on land attacks. Then he should be forced to use the VTOLs he builds to defend, or lose. And then his strategy is revealed.

Note that I say 'should'. I do not know if this is the case now.

It's a concept flaw in those "high oil" maps. They have nothing to defend in between. No groud to control at all. And they have excess of money in such a way they are forced to build defence to manage to spend everything they can.

Actually, if vtol was on, they would be forced to spend on vtol since they could.
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