Target variety

[NoQ]

The well-formulated version of this would be: the player who SUDDENLY sees enemy attacking with a wrong army is surely a looser (if the enemy could survive without showing his new army that long, then you are already dead). But if you see it just early enough, with some simple scouting, then you have time to fall back a little and produce a counter.

One weapon should not be as panacea to some another weapon.

I'd say don't balance weapons against weapons at all, in general. Balance weapons against bodies and propulsions and make weapons work together.

[NoQ]

You may notice that i'm not protecting a single point of view but rather changing subjects in every message.

I just said that rockets and cannons should be used together, and then i say they should replace each other repeatedly, this is not the same thing.

But this underlines the variety of different approaches that can probably co-exist as well on different phases.

[crab_]

Thank you NoQ. As next action please can you make working scheme
May be your own res tree to show idea of "using all weapons in 1 game" ?

As for me. i see only one model:
- several factions with sub-factions (weapon lines). For example in rocket faction we have MRA, mini-Pod, lancer (may be add more weapons).
I think each faction should have at least one weak point. Sub-factions can have more than one weak points because player can easier mix sub-factions of one faction.
- plus ability to switch sub-fractions during game

possiblities of adaption:
- change body and propulsion
- change sub-faction
- start new weapon line (e.g. start laser line when your rocket tactics fails vs cyborgs). I want see new weapon lines each 5-10 minutes of game.

In my model player still wont be able to change rockets to cannons or mix them.
In my model player does not need much weapons. Just 2-3 sub-fractions.

Problems of my model:
- need more weapons than we have in game (need more different weapon lines)

NoQ, may be you can suggest something different and more viable?

[NoQ]

Early game: hp-damage-damage model.

• Lack of cannons => lack of HP, countered by adding cannon tanks. Lack of machineguns => lack of AP damage, countered by cyborgs. Lack of rockets => lack of AT damage, countered by adding rockets. Turn minipods into indirect (as suggested in another thread) => force more cannon cyborgs (as cyborg meat shields are no longer worth it) => MRAs will disallow cannon cyborg hit-and-run, but hopefully not completely eliminate them.
  
  Variety here is controlled by use of cyborgs and proportions of weapons.

Then somebody gets either cobras (and eventually pythons) or bugs/leopards.

• In any case minipods start failing against better armor. In the first case one would need to get lancers. In the second case medium cannon, due to its splash, will become more effective than lancers. But once you decide between cannons and lancers, your enemy will switch bodies and you'd need to get the other weapon.
  
  Here we get extra variety with choosing direction of body development. Probably supercyborgs will show up soon.

Didn't think further yet. Also, i don't exactly feel what i'm saying is achievable.

[crab_]

@NoQ your model very similar to current model we have now in WZ 3.1 (or 2.3.x)
where is wheeled propulsion? what is weapon to fight with wheels and what weapon is bad against wheels?

Lack of rockets => lack of AT damage

As we discussed above, AT should be killed, because WZ is tank game
And how is possible to be "lacked of AT" in case MGs fighting vs. cannon?

MRAs will disallow cannon cyborg hit-and-run

Did you meant cyborgs will hit&run to kill rockets?
In current stats data we have cannon cyrogs with very short range. It is hard to hit&run for cyborgs.

Turn minipods into indirect (as suggested in another thread)

Mini-Pod damage should be nerfed then.
Formula of Accuracy is bad and is not fixed yet
All inirect-fire weapons are doomed.

lack of HP, countered by adding cannon tanks

I remember we played time ago and you still see cannons as "barrels with HP"
It was your strategy - use cannons as meat shield

Turn minipods into indirect (as suggested in another thread) => force more cannon cyborgs

Note, all cyborgs have very fast moving speed. In early game cyborgs is fastest propulsion. So cyborgs cannot be good as counter-measure to AT weapons because in that case cyborgs can be overpowered. Need to select - fast speed or effecient unit in fight.

In my vision..
Role of cyborgs should be defined as additional alternate way to counter rockets.
One more role of cyborgs can be - do surprise to enemy and use as 'saboteurs'. Attack oil resources and retreat. Or attack and kill enemy base before enemy can move army to defend base.

In my vision each weapon should have defined functions
1. highly specialised (1-2 functions).
2. medium specialised (3-5 functions).
3. widely specialized.

But once you decide between cannons and lancers, your enemy will switch bodies and you'd need to get the other weapon.

lancer effectiveness also depends on mechanics of targeting.
In one case lancer will fail in fight with light bodies (because they kill first tanks and long reload)
But in another case lancer can be the same effective to light bodies as they do to heavy bodies.

[NoQ]

As we discussed above, AT should be killed, because WZ is tank game

In early game there is only one type of tank (viper). We cannot avoid that.

Did you meant cyborgs will hit&run to kill rockets?

No, just avoid continuous machinegun fire during reload.

In current stats data we have cannon cyrogs with very short range. It is hard to hit&run for cyborgs.

Hit-and-run does not require range. It only requires less rate of fire. With bigger range you don't even need to come close to hit, you just quietly stay out of range.

Mini-Pod damage should be nerfed then.

What do you mean nerfed? We have not balanced anything yet. There is nothing to nerf.

I remember we played time ago and you still see cannons as "barrels with HP"

Not see but propose. And they also do some uniform damage to all targets in the process, so it's a good idea to upgrade them from time to time.

Role of cyborgs should be defined as additional alternate way to counter rockets.

No, lack of machineguns. To counter cannons you pick half-mg-cyborgs half-rocket-tanks, and cannons will always hit cyborgs, while your tanks kill them. To counter cannons/rockets you pick more cannon cyborgs that will do damage to rockets, as rockets may wipe your tanks pretty quickly. In presence of enough machineguns cyborgs need to become completely ineffective.
In this approach cyborgs can be made quite weak, but still functional.

lancer effectiveness also depends on mechanics of targeting.

What do you mean "depends"? We have not balanced anything yet.

[NoQ]

As for wheels, i expect cannon wheels to counter tmg hts (with enough hit and run), and probably make rockets worse against wheels? Dunno.

As for flamers, i think they should appear after bugs as a tool to force their usage if necessary.

[crab_]

As for flamers, i think they should appear after bugs as a tool to force their usage if necessary.

hmm i disagree. Flamers become underpowered then. Not sure.
Flamers have short range and they cannot destroy defenses.
Flamers should work as counter-weapon to some slow weapons (like cannons)
Flamers also much more effective against masses of light small tanks.
Player have 2 ways to protect himself from flamers:
- make yellow bodies
- use cobra body
One more problem of flamers - they effective when you have 10-20 flamers. Small groups of flamers is not effective at all (they cannot make ground burning).

I think each weapon should have direct function: like fight slow tanks.
Function "force to use yellow bodies" sound not good for me.
eh. this is just thinking.

No, just avoid continuous machinegun fire during reload.

Cannon cyborgs have fast reload.
Better stay and fight for them.

What do you mean nerfed? We have not balanced anything yet. There is nothing to nerf.

Indirect and anti-eferything weapon should have tiny damage

No, lack of machineguns. To counter cannons you pick half-mg-cyborgs half-rocket-tanks, and cannons will always hit cyborgs, while your tanks kill them.

In 3.1 your tanks still can attack enemy tanks, even if you see cyborgs in front.
I think balance should not be based on controversial facts.

"meat shield" is clean bad argument in balance i suppose

What do you mean "depends"? We have not balanced anything yet.

I think balance should not be based on controversial facts.

So my opinion: meat shields should not exist in game as far as possible. however We cannot avoid them
30% damage modifier to cyborgs should be killed.
Changee modifier from 30% to 70% and i believe it will become uneffective to use cyborgs as meat sheilds


in total
i dont like your model because i dont like to see cyborgs as main factor in balance.
We even have "no cyborgs" option.
Cyborgs is additional alternate way to play game.
In your model we need cyborgs both to fight with cannons or to fight with rockets.
Modifiers to cyborgs should be more soft.
like MG +15%, rocket -15%


Hovewer, may be you can extend model to futher levels of game.I suspect my model is not better than your

[Iluvalar]

I don't have time to answer and quote everything here, you guys talked a lot, but I can tell what was done in NRS for that purpose.

Weapon modifiers simplification
In NRS there is wheels → tracks → structures → borgs → wheels (...) and each weapon is anti-oneofthose and therefore is weak to the opposite side of the cycle. They do normal damage to the others.

This mean that when someone attack you with rockets in NRS, if you can't go all borgs, you can instead just leave the tracks (and htracks) and convert to wheel (and hovers). That make the rockets do the normal 100% damage to you. The wheels in NRS are balanced correctly and are not weaker by default than the tracks or htracks like it is in vanilla, which make the conversion back possible.

So if you have researched bodies or if you have a weapon that dont fit on borgs, you are not entirely screwed yet.

Functionnal armor layer
While you are struggling to define the real difference between rockets and cannons, in NRS, the armor layer is fixed so they can't be mistaken. The cannons are classed medium and the rockets are classed heavy.

The price of the rockets is higher, so it is not suited to fit on light bodies. The result is just too expensive for the amount of HP it haves. The rockets fit better on heavy bodies. This force the rocket players to invest a lot on armor points.

Typically, the armor of the heavy bodies are designed to be on the sweat spot of the medium classed weapon. however, the light class is under the minimum 33% damage anyway... So the extra points invested in armor is useless. This cause a new cycle light→medium→heavy→light to be fully operational.

This mean that not considering the propulsions, the machine guns will be defeated by the cannons, the cannons will be defeated by the rockets but the machine guns will outnumber the rockets badly and happens to defeat it. Much like any other weapon modifiers effect. It's a much more sturdy mechanic.

Now, it doesn't prevent the players to change the body type completely. For exemple, a player using a medium classed weapon for a while might have researched the medium body line a bit (120%) before he realize that, on the long run, he need rockets to fight the now numerous tracked enemies. At that point, he might as well use his brand new medium body and keep researching them for both his medium weapon and the rockets. Actually, it woud be a nice move since one research would improve both models...


Simplifying the weapon modifiers, and fixing the armor layer in vanilla could be very good for the game...

[NoQ]

I just filled in some random numbers, in a hp-damage-damage way, and tried to see what happens.

• 

  The numbers

  table.png (78.64 KiB) Viewed 9011 times

  

  dpsgraph.png (109.53 KiB) Viewed 9011 times

[anonim17465]

NoQ
1) you haven't count accuracy
2) your hitpoint calculations are wrong (1. bodies has different amount of hp 2. propulsion do not multiply on that number, but add it.)
viper = 65hp. wheels = +100% (or *2) = 130hp.
3) your numbers about defence against weapons for wheels and ht are wrong (probably it's very old topic?)
but actual damage of AT or AR weapon to borg may be about 5 times less, than AT against tanks.
here is more data: http://warzone2100.info/weapons.php#left-tabs-2
4) nothing do zero damage when hit...

Second graph is completely out of my understanding. Is it kind of tournament between units? and what does the number in each cell mean?

I can see, that you are old member here, and you should know all of this, probably I just did not get your idea?

about variety of targets: right now we have more target, than people can use.
if you want people to use them more, make them more special, give some advantage to wheels (cheaper, faster?) and ht (faster?) and reduce use of most common things (make hover much more expensive)

Okay, sorry for your time. Probably this topic is out of my understanding.

[NoQ]

anonim17465: please read the topic before answering, not just half of the last post, you're completely misguided.
I don't see a point in answering before i see you did try to understand.