Reform of Research Tree

[crab_]

Hey.

What you think about idea to change whole Research tree to make games more balanced?
Current research tree have many "weak points". I know what i say.
I think its impossible to bring order in balance without total change of research tree.

First, we need more separate lines of research. Current Tree have one 'axis' - it is line of research upgrades. Actually you need research "research upgrades" for many things.
I think better make several and separated axis. For example we can make separated weapon upgrades, armor upgrades, cyborg upgrades, defenses upgrades.
Do you understand idea? I want to make player able to select what to research: 1) more advanced weapons 2) more advanced armors and tank bodies 3) more advanced defenses.
I'm sure "researching research" should be nerfed or removed. Increasing speed of research by 30% many times - that is not good.
Damage upgrades should be separated from getting new weapons. Player should be able to get next weapons in weapon line without damage upgrades, because damage upgrades should have 1000% price than we have now. Each damage upgrade increase power of whole army and must have higher price.
Another bad of current Tree is very high concentration of vital upgrades in first 10-15 minutes of game.


See, i have tried to visualize current research tree (it was funny experience)

test.gif

(1.95 MiB) Downloaded 82 times

[maway]

to know research tree is one off game parts. If i see player is making rockets, i will go with cyborgs, if i see mashinegun i will go with rockets, cannons, and so one. To know how to research weampons which will end the game is realy cool, but to change strategies in game is fun also. Against heavy canons there is only rockets, and flamers maybe? I like that way that game is!

[crab_]

Here is my sample of Research Tree to show my thoughts about research tree

Sorry, i dont know how to hide these large images (update-1)

ResTree_test2.png

(660.81 KiB) Downloaded 20 times

[Iluvalar]

to know research tree is one off game parts. If i see player is making rockets, i will go with cyborgs, if i see mashinegun i will go with rockets, cannons, and so one. To know how to research weampons which will end the game is realy cool, but to change strategies in game is fun also. Against heavy canons there is only rockets, and flamers maybe? I like that way that game is!

You are wrong in many way.

First, the counter would stay there and would even have more impact on the game. The cyborgs would still be a decent counter to rockets and slighlty higher tech (assuming they survive the first waves) will still fair better on long run over low tech like mg vs rockets.

In NRS, where I pushed that principle to the limit, you know that the only thing you need to research to reach the heavy cannons are the other cannons so this part might look dumb, but you might discover that you can research both fishes, twin machine guns and hover at the same moment and make a very nice effect if you master that opening ! And you will struggle a long time before you can master how to reach the baboon bodies with the heavy cannons with the prefect timing.

Also, in the same way, while it's easier to reach each single part you want in an unwinded tech tree, you will take much more time to explore and master every branch. I'm sure players that played NRS a lot might not yet know that I added a second more power nexus turret at the end of the electronic branch, or that there is a ultimate missile weapon called supernova or maybe that I added a twin heavy cannon at the end of the techy cannon branch.

You really underestimate combinatory power it create. You are talking about "going with rocket" or "going with machine" because it's the only thing you can imagine, but in NRS you can go for "low tech rocket with focus on armor, but maybe a little bit of power upgrade just in case and oh... I gonna take the heavy bodies this time". Because all these options are no more related. the number of combination explode, and the number of solutions also increase and become more complex. You use much more skill and creativity than a boring, "he use rocket, so I gonna go cyborgs" kinda thing... just think about it.


@Crab, I agree with the overall idea of course, but i'm not sure how we can apply that to vanilla and that it can stay "vanilla". Might want to launch you own mod ?

[crab_]

@Crab, I agree with the overall idea of course, but i'm not sure how we can apply that to vanilla and that it can stay "vanilla". Might want to launch you own mod ?

I want launch my own mod, but in version 3.2. I just like make mods I'm preparing some stuff for modding right now. I think i have 1/2 of year before 3.2 will be released.
I want to know plans of warzone project team. I suggest change research tree more or less. Plus review all stats data.
I see low activity on project, so i'm afraid project team will reject any reforms because they do not have enough manpower to maintain process.
Here i'm asking active project members (NoQ. Per, Vexed etc.) Guys. what you plan? I think project members have their own view of whole 'warzone-system', i've never played sc, so i cant imagine their way of thinking Actually we can play warzone without any balance and we actually playing warzone.

to know research tree is one off game parts. If i see player is making rockets, i will go with cyborgs, if i see mashinegun i will go with rockets, cannons, and so one. To know how to research weampons which will end the game is realy cool, but to change strategies in game is fun also. Against heavy canons there is only rockets, and flamers maybe? I like that way that game is!

This behaviour must be preserved.
You have only few times (moments in game) when you have ability to change your weapons.
Note: we saying about case when enemy teams have equal skills. If enemy attacks you with rockets, mostly you dont have enough time to produce enough cyborgs.
In most cases players mixing two or more weapons.

[maway]

to: Iluvalar

Because all these options are no more related. the number of combination explode, and the number of solutions also increase and become more complex. You use much more skill and creativity than a boring, "he use rocket, so I gonna go cyborgs" kinda thing... just think about it.

why not ? this was starting example. Cannon cyborgs + heavy mashinegun, and u can do nathing,,, if you go rockets u will go forward with lancer, and i go with artilery + heavy canon.
Soo you need to know some rules:
well tech tree is same for all, just depends what king of weampons u will use?
Mashine, flamer, canon, rocket.
Mashine: ground/air, good vs cyborgs and low armor vehicles, cheap, fast to build, good body hp acording to time and price.
Flamer: only ground, v.good vs low fire armor vehicles (in early start, python armor is only 12 while kinetic is abaut 50). not cheap acording to low body hp, fast movement. Bad vs walls and walled towers, low ranged. Good for raids.
canon: only ground, good vs tanks, bases, has high body hp, slow, good for high oil games, good demage.
rockets:Good vs buildings, wehicles. Not cheap, high demage, not so slow as cannons, however body hp is low.
In conclusion, its realy hard to play with one kind of weampons. I prefer research 2 kinds of them, cos u have free slots in reserach facility, and u can go forward with T2 T3 reseraches.

[Lord Apocalypse]

To be realistic I do not see any drastic alterations to the way the retail game looked or played.

If you look at retail and now, how much has actually changed on the outside? Not much really. Balance has been tweaked as has the core code.. new rendering engine added, some UI stuff has been added... but overall the game still looks and plays like it did in 99.

[Iluvalar]

to: Iluvalar

Because all these options are no more related. the number of combination explode, and the number of solutions also increase and become more complex. You use much more skill and creativity than a boring, "he use rocket, so I gonna go cyborgs" kinda thing... just think about it.

why not ? this was starting example. Cannon cyborgs + heavy mashinegun, and u can do nathing,,, if you go rockets u will go forward with lancer, and i go with artilery + heavy canon.
Soo you need to know some rules:
well tech tree is same for all, just depends what king of weampons u will use?
Mashine, flamer, canon, rocket.
Mashine: ground/air, good vs cyborgs and low armor vehicles, cheap, fast to build, good body hp acording to time and price.
Flamer: only ground, v.good vs low fire armor vehicles (in early start, python armor is only 12 while kinetic is abaut 50). not cheap acording to low body hp, fast movement. Bad vs walls and walled towers, low ranged. Good for raids.
canon: only ground, good vs tanks, bases, has high body hp, slow, good for high oil games, good demage.
rockets:Good vs buildings, wehicles. Not cheap, high demage, not so slow as cannons, however body hp is low.
In conclusion, its realy hard to play with one kind of weampons. I prefer research 2 kinds of them, cos u have free slots in reserach facility, and u can go forward with T2 T3 reseraches.

What you are talking about is weapon modifiers, and weapon specs consistency in the same line. This could be kept in another techtree. All you said is still 100% true in NRS, even if you never played it.

Crab could do the same, I'm sure.

[crab_]

Here is list of some "imbalance" of current research tree

IMBA-1 Price of research does not work for games where you have more than 10 oil derricks
In you have more than 8-12 oil derricks importance of price of researches becomes low. You do not need check price of research, 2-3 research facilities can work all time and you can sucessfully fight with player who are not researching at all.
In 'High-Oil' games (more than 25 derricks) price of research just do not taken into account by players. Only time of research has value in High-Oil matches.
my solution: Increase price of research.

IMBA-2 Researching research is overpowered and gives too much.
It is about researches like "Dedicated Synaptic Link Data Analysis".
Each of these researches increases rate of research by 30% (from base value).
Most of warzone stuff becomes unlocked by researching research upgrades.
my solution: remake research tree, reduce effect of researching research

IMBA-3 Researching 'power upgrades' is overpowered.
It is about researches like "Gas Turbine Generator".
Three of these upgrades increases you power (oil income) +100%.
So you need invest 100$ for research center and also some money for research, as result you have 200% power all time.
my solution: remove or nerf power upgrades

IMBA-4 We have a plenty of "invisible" upgrades.
Many upgrades makes units stronger without any visual effects.
Invisible upgrades are most important in strategy in Warzone. Power of units grows very fast in early game.
These invisible upgrades also have very low price. You can make your whole army +30% stronger for 100-200$
I'm trying to say: invisible upgrades is good thing but we need more visible upgrades.
For example: when you getting medium cannon - it is visible upgrade, because your tanks produces with another turret model.
my solution: increase price of invisible upgrades +500% and reduce impact of these upgrades

IMBA-5 Early game research is overpowered.
Power of units grows by big steps in early game.
After 20-30 minutes of game rate of researching is greatly reduced.
my solution: add more research in medim and late game. reduce effect of early research

IMBA-6 Late research (after 30 mins) is very long and later weapons and bodies is not used in most games.
Actually these end-game weapons and bodies are underpowered.
my solution: reduce requirements of black bodies, raild guns etc.

IMBA-7 Current research tree is messed up. It is just hard to remember all prerequisites for each weapons and body.
my solution: kill most of relation links in research tree. Make research lines more linear and independent

IMBA-8 First researches in research lines are greatly overpowered.
See, first upgrade of cannon gives +25% damage bonus for 37$ power (HEAT Cannon Shells).
Next upgrades:20% for 75$ /16% for 112$ / 14% for 187 / 12.5% for 225$ etc.
Player who researched first upgrades earlier 20-30 seconds receives damage bonus 16-25% for 20-30 seconds.
This bonus is very high. In 20 seconds Player can start deadly attack, he kills just a 3-4 tanks more, but it is enough to finish attack at enemy base and win match.
my solution: reduce effect of first upgrades. I prefer add 10% whe you get every next upgrade


...To be continued

[crab_]

Hey. I'm still waiting some comments from project team members. What they thinking about reform of research tree?
Research tree shall be reformed, less or more.

Here is my another sample of research tree which can exist in Warzone2100 in parallel world

ResTree_v3.png

(1.31 MiB) Not downloaded yet

Preview:

ResTree_v3_small.png (65.22 KiB) Viewed 15547 times

[NoQ]

Looks pretty cool, before i start thinking

[crab_]

Looks pretty cool, before i start thinking

No need thinking, this is simple sample
You can donwload full version (i still see 0 downloads)

In this Sample i'm trying to demonstrate following:
- more independent weapon lines.
- splitted damage&ROF upgrades with getting new weapons. Damage upgrades have to be separated because that upgrades are 'invisible' and should have higher price
- more than 1 'axis' os Research Tree.
- simplified requirements for new weapons/bodies

Anyway Research Tree must be adapted to "solid balanced vision of the game"

[crab_]

My Question: What you think about total remaking of Research Tree?
Here is variants:
0) No change at all.
1) Change just small things in current Research Tree (like add 'leopard' to be researched after research module)
2) Medium level of change. Change 'weak points' (see IMBA-1 - IMBA-9 above). Change overpowered researches.
3) High level of change . Total remaking of research tree. Review all timings and structure of Tree to satisfy new balance vision.

[Iluvalar]

I believe your question is non-sens. There is 2 options avalaible : Tiny changes and total remake.

This is due to the progression line. Between each branch of your tech-tree, you desire the left and right branch to be equally valuable. If one is useless, it's worst than if it never existed. They must all be good. This mean as a tech-tree builder, you need to keep track of how you affect the progression speed of each line. if you improve an element in the tech-tree, every research that lead to it will become more valuable and every research that come after any of those research will appear cheaper. As a result, in theory, each time you make a change, you need to rebalance everything that come before or after what you have changed.

As a result, "medium changes", are impossible. I heard many good ideas here from the last few days. But none of those can be applied unless we do a total rebuilt of the tech-tree.

[crab_]

I believe your question is non-sens. There is 2 options avalaible : Tiny changes and total remake.

Agreed. But as we know already current balance data is chaotic. We can change many thing and dont care
I suppose i cant make things worse because there is no things which can be worse
Balance lays mostly in players psychology
For example. price of research can be increased to make "tech strategy" weaken.

As a result, in theory, each time you make a change, you need to rebalance everything that come before or after what you have changed.

Agreed. But In theory we need hundreds of playtesters. be sure

if you improve an element in the tech-tree, every research that lead to it will become more valuable and every research that come after any of those research will appear cheaper

Agreed. Mostly i want nerf research..