Huge timing problem

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Iluvalar
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Huge timing problem

Post by Iluvalar »

I've been criticizing it in the past, but now that I played thoroughly some duels. I'm affirmative and can see the direct consequence of it.

As you might know, odd accuracy bugs made the units either shoot with 15% more precision or automaticaly hit for bigger targets. In effect, it increase the DPS of most weapons by 15% in comparison of what the game was balanced on. I already said that it would probably cause balance issues, but I was not expecting to have such a huge game breaking impact at the very first second of the opening.

When a rusher attack a more conservative player, he have more units. The mass effect make him have more effect for each units on top of simply having more. the rushed player cannot fight in the middle and must delay his attack.

Let's take for exemple the map vision, which was the right size in 2.3 and one of the biggest of the stock maps anyway. When a player see 6 units in the center and only have 2, his chances a null and the fight would be a total waste, so he have to leave the center and fall back. There is an equilibrium point however a small time later. If you can reach 6 vs 8 units or maybe 4vs6 with the right design (say htrack), you can stop the progress of the enemy. Yes, you lose still lose a bit more units, but hopefully the extra trucks or research lab you built gave you more production and now you can build more units as a compensation to the lost. Eventually, you can take the lead and claim the center oil for yourself. You could screw that up, but in theory, the game was balanced so you had a chance to survive that way.

However now, the enemy units kills 15% more fast your own derricks, units and structure. The point where you were able to produce the extra lost is shifted, and where you needed to 6 units vs 8 to hold before, you now need at least one more production cycle (30s) of units now (8 units vs 10). Knowing that the vision map is 90s truck time long, so that you meet the enemy in the middle 45 seconds away from your base. How much more 30s of land can you afford to lose before the equilibrium between tech vs rush behaviors is scrambled ? Of course, none. If you happen to lose that more part of the terrain, you will suffer from having less oils and you will never be able to come back.

A few days ago, I played a pefectly executed blind NoQ's htrack rush against a pure mg wheel rusher and it was simply too late. Curious about his technique, I played a full normal rush against him to see how he was doing that. He happened to have even more units that me in the center ! And I died again with no hope of survival.

It happen that this guy considered the engine research as a luxury thing that you can spare. And he was successful doing so. In prior versions, when you were screwing a little, it was possible to hide behind your building; produce a couple more htrack units and recover form the damage... But this is gone as well. First, your units are unable to fire him over the building when you hide and worst, he now double his DPS on your structures and he just shred all your base in a glimpse.

My conclusion to this is that the FFRCFPP opening is OP and pretty much the only way you can open anymore due to DPS accidental buff. You'd think this game is about research and design... But nah !
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NoQ
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Re: Huge timing problem

Post by NoQ »

I confirm that i felt teching to become underpowered in 3.1, but was never sure if it's just me too rusty.
This makes some sense.
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Re: Huge timing problem

Post by Per »

In 3.2, the buff is no longer accidental, so it is at least deterministic. We still need to fix the problem.

My gut feeling tells me we need some early game hard counters that can be researched against the first/rush game components. Also add some defenders advantage in their own base, but I see no good way to introduce that without some GUI code changes.
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Iluvalar
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Re: Huge timing problem

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Per wrote:My gut feeling tells me we need some early game hard counters that can be researched against the first/rush game components.
Can't work, sorry. Unless you rush yourself and meet the rusher at the center, you don't know what his plan is at all until t -30s . If you make a counter that can be researched and deployed in that amount of time, I'm affraid it would be OP or seriously funky. At the very least, you would kill any possibility for the MGs or wheels to be useful anymore.

Did you really pushed that "always hit" modification in 3.2 ? :o
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Per
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Re: Huge timing problem

Post by Per »

Yes, 3.2 has the discussed "direct fire always hits" modification now.

A hard counter does not need to make what it counters obsolete. Think of it in terms of rock-paper-scissors - if all you have is scissors, and the enemy researches rock, you need to come up with rocks of your own or go for paper, but scissors will still be useful later. I don't know if a hard counter is the right solution here, though. Just saying it might be a possibility.

Another data point is that establishing early map control is not as important in 3.2 as in 3.1, because economic expansion costs significantly more power.

I think we need more tools in the balancing tool chest, though.

In particular, there needs to be easier ways to get information on what the enemy is doing, especially early on.
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Iluvalar
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Re: Huge timing problem

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Per wrote: A hard counter does not need to make what it counters obsolete. Think of it in terms of rock-paper-scissors - if all you have is scissors, and the enemy researches rock, you need to come up with rocks of your own or go for paper, but scissors will still be useful later. I don't know if a hard counter is the right solution here, though. Just saying it might be a possibility.
I know what a hard counter is, but you fail to see what you imply. If there is button that allows me to kill an entire wave of enemy in 30s of research and deployement. Why would the enemy ever try that ? I build up something during 6 minutes, and the enemy with some magical hand wave desintegrate it in 30 seconds... :annoyed: . It wouldn't work.
Per wrote: Another data point is that establishing early map control is not as important in 3.2 as in 3.1, because economic expansion costs significantly more power.
Less power would mean even less research, wouldn't solve the rushing problem at all.
Per wrote: In particular, there needs to be easier ways to get information on what the enemy is doing, especially early on.
It was removed from 2.3.9 don't you remember ?
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Re: Huge timing problem

Post by Per »

Well, there we go again. Not sure how much I want to continue this discussion with you when you clearly do not want to even try be constructive. I do not "imply" in any way that a hard counter is a "button that allows me to kill an entire wave of enemy", nor is showing what units the enemy is building the only conceivable way ever to gain information from the enemy in an RTS game. And less power means less everything, not just research.
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Iluvalar
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Re: Huge timing problem

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What do you mean, I dont try to be constructive ?

I identified a problem, found the cause and, actually, there is already a patch avalaible.

Put it in the words you want, you asked for an option to be able to stop an enemy rush wave in 30 seconds.
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Re: Huge timing problem

Post by Berg »

The easiest way to defend against a rush is prepare for it...if they can make tanks in 30 seconds so can you...If they truck rush and build mg towers so can you.
I think thats pretty balanced...
After all it is war....
I cant see any problem at all.
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Iluvalar
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Re: Huge timing problem

Post by Iluvalar »

The major problem, is that a game is a collection of choices. If you need yourself to open with FFRPCFPP and produce and research in a very specific way to have any chances to win, this is not really making choices, therefore playing at all.

Once you have yourself 30 mg units and 6 minutes of research only in the mg branch, there is no reason at all to change your build, and the research on both side with focus solely on mg.
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Re: Huge timing problem

Post by Per »

Iluvalar wrote:there is already a patch avalaible.
And I am supposed to somehow know which patch you refer to... how?
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Re: Huge timing problem

Post by Per »

Per wrote:Yes, 3.2 has the discussed "direct fire always hits" modification now.
Ugh. My memory is getting a bit hazy after the summer break. I have actually not pushed this change yet. I was still looking into how to best adjust the firing times of direct fire weapons to offset the impact of the modification.
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Iluvalar
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Re: Huge timing problem

Post by Iluvalar »

The ROF nerf need to be directly proportional to the accuracy buff for the DPS to remain identical. There is no other options for your problem. (and I seriously doubt it will look satisfying)
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