Accuracy straw poll

The place to discuss balance changes for future versions of the game.
(Master releases & 3.X)

Which accuracy system do you want?

Random to-hit roll, no physics
0
No votes
Gaussian to-hit roll, no physics
7
28%
Physics-based only, no random roll
8
32%
Projectiles always hit (the Starcraft option)
3
12%
Do not change anything / I do not understand this poll / No opinion
7
28%
 
Total votes: 25

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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by Staff » 02 May 2013, 04:52

We would like to remind everyone to be civil toward each other. :annoyed:
There is no point in yelling at each other if you don't have solid code to backup your arguments.

If you want 1.x/2.x style quasi-random "solutions", then you don't belong here, muddying up the waters.

And since lots of you are forgetting what this section is all about, let me refresh your memory:
Greetings all!

This section of the forums will be used to discuss balance related changes for 3.x+ builds.

The way it works, identify what the issue is.
Post about it. (yes, you can make a poll about the thing you want to balance)
Come up with a new balance solution. (Having a mod/code to prove your point is also a nice touch.)
Explain why you think this will solve the issue.
Discuss amongst your peers.

Once consensus has been reached, we will integrate said change into the game.

We highly recommend
  • to have 1 thread for each item that needs the balance.
  • for you to be playing the master builds for the balance changes, there are a few differences between versions that could throw a wrench in the way balance works, so please stick with master builds when discussing about balance changes.


Note, follow the forum rules, and no flamewars.
Sorry, this account has been deactivated.
Please post issues in Website feedback instead, only Moderators can read things there.

zydonk
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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by zydonk » 02 May 2013, 12:07

Staff wrote:We would like to remind everyone to be civil toward each other. :annoyed:
There is no point in yelling at each other if you don't have solid code to backup your arguments.

If you want 1.x/2.x style quasi-random "solutions", then you don't belong here, muddying up the waters.
Thought at first this was a rap for Shadow Wolf's fanboy foray above, esp the crass jib that even if Iluvalar is right he should still foff. But I see you actually support SW.

So maybe you are referring to raycast's pubtalk monologues - which are certainly unsupported by "code" (where his own efforts have been less than spectacular)?

If you have a complaint, be more specific in future. This has been a rewarding - if overly scholastic - thread so far; hopefully, your heavy-booted intervention won't spoil it.

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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by raycast » 03 May 2013, 21:00

NoQ wrote: For instance, Blizzard have made A HELLA LOT OF decisions before even creating the first unit for the game.
So have we (or more precisely: Pumpkin). I'm not suggesting we reset everything to 0 and start from that...
Iluvanar wrote: Ok, now imagine we notice that cannons are too strong. But only if more than 5 tile away and only if mounted on a cobra and fighting a smg viper. But at the same time we notice that THEY ARE WAY TOO WEAK and need a buff, when vs the same units, they are closer that 4 tile.
Now, imagine this would actually happen, and not just in your theory. Then it would maybe be actually unbalanceable. And it suck really badly already, because it would have been unbalanceable before...
Iluvanar wrote: How would you solve that mess with balance ?
This is not how WZ balance is. We don't need to solve it, because we don't have it.
zydonk wrote:So maybe you are referring to raycast's pubtalk monologues - which are certainly unsupported by "code" (where his own efforts have been less than spectacular)?
Given this great community spirit, i will certainly now contribute more. NOT.

Nobody here contributes actual code, and everybody just seems to rant and complain about the "good old times" and how any change is a dead and and will runin the game for everyone. :annoyed: This: https://github.com/Iluvalar/warzone2100 definitely is a joke. :rofl2: I have better things to do, any my own 100+k SLOC projects to take care of. Sorry to Per and Cyp who seem to do the majority of the work these days and have to live with this spirit. I do hope you get some code contributors sometime. But just continue your line, I believe you have been doing a good job, despite all these people bitching.

I'm, however, choosing this option: :zomby: and focusing on my other projects, where I'm more involved than here.

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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by Originway » 04 May 2013, 00:01

raycast man, don't let those idiots get to you! at least you were trying and you had patches as well
zydork and Iluvalar are trying to kill active development because they want their shitty version back

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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by Rman Virgil » 04 May 2013, 00:27

.

Where the heck is John Hammond when you need him ? O_o

As individuals there's a lot of brain power and talent in evidence here. Lot of MP experience too. Theoretically, the tangible ingrediants of real progress. But there is a powerful intangible without which a project of this scope will suffer without it's predominating and that is an espirit de corp. Preceeding that is a genuine respect for what each has to offer and the commitment that even in the most heated and contested disagreements, thou shall at all costs, avoid disagreeble affronts. Not an easy challenge to rise to, admittedly, but there is no way around if you are to preemptively subvert these type outcomes which are huge obstacles to advancing the cause. Live, learn and change and even this can be to the good. Expecting a different outcome, perchance, without such changes in disposition.... well, that was Einstein's definition for you know what. :hmm: However, such change cannot be compelled. To work, you really have to believe wholeheartedly in the values, and value, of Espirit de Corps.
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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by effigy » 04 May 2013, 01:02

raycast wrote:
Nobody here contributes actual code, and everybody just seems to rant and complain about the "good old times" and how any change is a dead and and will runin the game for everyone. :annoyed: This: https://github.com/Iluvalar/warzone2100 definitely is a joke. :rofl2: I have better things to do, any my own 100+k SLOC projects to take care of. Sorry to Per and Cyp who seem to do the majority of the work these days and have to live with this spirit. I do hope you get some code contributors sometime. But just continue your line, I believe you have been doing a good job, despite all these people bitching.

I'm, however, choosing this option: :zomby: and focusing on my other projects, where I'm more involved than here.
I've seen similar posts over the years, and it seems to me they're best translated as "I came here looking for praise, but instead I got my feelings hurt because not only did one ignorant soul say mean things to me, but my ideas/patches weren't released immediately." Roughly equal to two children disagreeing over playing on the slide or the swings at a playground, where one child refuses to follow the other and cries out "I'm not playing with you ever!" hoping that a mother is in earshot to resolve the dispute for them. This is the 2nd biggest problem this community has, imo (the first being the vocal ignorance).

If you were confidant that you had something to contribute, these few voices shouldn't be tipping the scale of yeigh and neigh.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by Per » 04 May 2013, 01:19

@effigy - If that is to be the attitude around here, then no wonder this project has few contributors.

@zydonk - Your post above is completely out of line. I do not want to see one other post like this from you. Consider yourself warned.

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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by effigy » 04 May 2013, 01:46

Per wrote:@effigy - If that is to be the attitude around here, then no wonder this project has few contributors.

...
I agree, and I think it's sad. I wish more capable and willing folks would discover warzozne.

Raycast seems fluent in english, so I don't think it can be said there was a translation issue. It seems to me another case of being oversensitive to the vocal minority. I hope in the future people of this mentality won't bother posting anywhere and save everyone else some time. To run around deleting all your contributions because you can't convince someone you're right ( someone who simply refuses to see your point) is purely childish behavior.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by NoQ » 04 May 2013, 05:53

NoQ, in his first post in this thread, wrote:Voting on balance? Bad idea.

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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by Rman Virgil » 04 May 2013, 11:45

.

If you are part of a history with a reapeating pattern of undesirable results, in order to change the tragectory of future outcomes, you must learn of the differences that will make a difference, that will alter the course, bit by bit if need be, but for that to happen you have to take ownership of the undesirable results in the first place. On the battlefield, or in peacetime pursuits, this is what sets apart a thriving organziation, or team, from one that is doomed. Need not take my word for it. There several thousand years of recorded testimonial to that effect. You need only look into it with the presumption there is much to learn, you don't know it all or have it down pat, and that there is always room to be better at whatever.

When you point the forefinger of blame on others it is well advised to take note of the 3 fingers simultaneously staring you in the face..

Really don't think Raycast was looking for praise. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with praise deserved which is just 101, world class, best practice protocol and ethic for running any successful organization, for profit or non-profit. I believe what is at issue here is basic respect or its absence. You demonstrably hold an individual of value or you treat them as worthless. There's no in between. Even the state of offering nothing, zero acknowledment, is as if you hold there to be no value worth regarding.

There have been quite a number of quality contributors, 1st rate by any metric, who are no longer here and left under something of a cloud. Are they all childish, fracked-up, 3rd rate individuals, who left in an unwarranted fit of immaturity ? As long as you believe that, nothing will change and quality contributors will always be scarce.
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Impact = C x (R + E + A + T + E)

Contrast
Reach
Exposure
Articulation
Trust
Echo
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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by Iluvalar » 04 May 2013, 17:48

It's sad, because I was about to tell him he was right about something.Too bad.

Per, could you confirm that your new new patch changed seriously the global hit/miss ratio ? Do you understand that since the damage is absorbed by the armour, you can't balance by tweaking that invisible stat. You will need to balance trought visible layers. In other word, the ROF is the only option avalaible.

If you make all weapons hit at 90% or higher, you wont brake the game mechanic, but A) You wont either give the players what they really asked in this poll and B) you will have to mess around quite badly with the ROF of every weapon in the game. You will lose any decisional capacity about the ROF of the weapon you design. In other words, machine guns might start to shoot slower than heavy cannon once you finish the new balance. I don't think that's what you are aiming for.
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by NoQ » 04 May 2013, 18:26

Accuracy upgrades need an update as well.

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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by Per » 05 May 2013, 01:27

@Iluvalar - The only patch I've made so far is http://developer.wz2100.net/attachment/ ... uracy.diff which obviously does not address re-balance yet. I don't know what the "global hit/miss ratio" is nor what changing it seriously means.

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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by Iluvalar » 05 May 2013, 14:44

This is the "always hit" option which only 11% of the players asked for.
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Re: Accuracy straw poll

Post by Per » 05 May 2013, 15:21

Iluvalar wrote:This is the "always hit" option which only 11% of the players asked for.
This = my patch? No, it implements the physics-based for direct fire, and just like before for indirect fire, option.

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