Balance 3.1. Is possibly to fix before 3.2?

[crab_]

Have not tried patch yet.

I see no reason to change VTOL Machinegun
VTOL versions of this weapons are useless in most cases, they should not be nerfed.
Bunker Twin Machinegun - not used in game.

Again, neccesary additions to patch:
VTOL Plasmite bombs
- set damage type to ARTILLERY ROUND
Incendiary Mortar
- reduce damage
Nerf Ground Shaker turret and Ground Shaker emplacement (increase build time and reduce range)
Remove weapons from transports.

I think reduced modifiers against halftracks nerfed rush a bit. Maybe towers will be helpful too, not sure. Also tmg hp nerf affected wheeled units more. Also we have a bit better cannons (i actually always thought of cannons as an option for the rusher (as they don't need engineering), but when we're saying "there's no choice but mg" ... dunno).

Ok, this changes can give more chances for other strategies than MG rush.

[Alpha93]

I don't think GS needs a nerf. Isn't it already an artillery-type weapon, hence it has low damage multipliers for tracked/half tracked vehicles?
I mean, if a Humvee gets hit by a 155mm howitzer round it is supposed to explode into a thousand of tiny pieces.
On the other hand, the minimum damage could use a tweak from 33% to 20%. I see no point using HPV/AC/TAC or cannons in general when the TAG has way more DPS. And a MG isn't really supposed to be able to kill a heavily armored tank (i.e. this minimum damage thing completely defeats the purpose of heavy tracked armor).

[crab_]

I don't think GS needs a nerf. Isn't it already an artillery-type weapon, hence it has low damage multipliers for tracked/half tracked vehicles?
I mean, if a Humvee gets hit by a 155mm howitzer round it is supposed to explode into a thousand of tiny pieces.

GS (Ground Shakers) have very long range and high damage. Main feature of Ground Shakers - they damage ground, splash radius = 2 tiles. So 1 projectile can damage 10-20 enemy units.
Tracked tanks have resistance to artillery, yes, But tracked tanks are very slow so enemy artillery have enough time to kill them.
Ground shakers are overpowered on maps with high amount of oil resources.
I suggest reduce range of Ground Shaker and increase build time.

Spoiler:

• Ground Shaker
  Range 78 -> 64 (tiles) (info: Bombard: 18, Howitzer: 39 Hellstorm:55, Ripple Rockets: 86)
  Build Time 1250 -> 1600
• Ground Shaker emplacement
  Build Points 600 -> 1100

On the other hand, the minimum damage could use a tweak from 33% to 20%. I see no point using HPV/AC/TAC or cannons in general when the TAG has way more DPS. And a MG isn't really supposed to be able to kill a heavily armored tank (i.e. this minimum damage thing completely defeats the purpose of heavy tracked armor).

We can not nerf minimumDamage because this is big change touches everything.
TAG was nerfed very good, I think TAG will become useless against army of tracked cannons.
TAG damage modifier to tracked tanks will be decreased from 50% to 40%, and minimumDamage is dependent on damage modifiers.

[Alpha93]

Just keep in mind that GS isn't as spammed as ripple rockets.
There's no need to nerf GS, imho.

[Rommel]

Just keep in mind that GS isn't as spammed as ripple rockets.
There's no need to nerf GS, imho.

I am sort of in agreement with this, however I have participated in a few long running hi oil games where a kind of "deadlock" ensues with a kind of impregnable no mans land comes about that is almost impossible to penetrate. Even then none of these games last forever, the better team wins in the end.

I think I would be against nerfing GS as well, or at least would like to discuss the pros and cons a bit more.

Just to add though, there are times when I see people spamming GS units like they do incendiary mortars which can be irritating.

[crab_]

Just keep in mind that GS isn't as spammed as ripple rockets.

Ground shakers are spammed as ripples rockets. Ground shakers is the best artillery.
Army of Ground Shakers tanks is common thing in team games on high-oil map.
Ground shakers more effective than archangel missiles, if you place them close enough to enemy.
Many players complain on Ground Shakers.

Ground shakers can simply destroy army of 100 heavy tracked tanks. Ripples cannot do that.

Team which spam ripples can be attacked and can be killed by tank armies.
Team which spam ground shakers can not be defeated by tank armies. I know what i'm saying, i played lots of games and GS is 'secret' of victory in many team games.
Well, ground shakers is not very effective in low-oil games, because they have high price. That's why i suggest just reduce range and increase build time of GS.
I can say i just bored, i mean i see GS in every high-oil game. Each high-oil game is challenge in artillery war. The winner is the team that uses GS better.

Not sure how can i proof my words. We can play game or i can search for videos, dont know

If you think ripples are better than GS, just imagine GS damages 12,6 tiles² area, while ripple rockets damages 0,8 tiles²

SplashDamage.png (8.49 KiB) Viewed 7155 times

[Alpha93]

As you've posted above, it is clearly wrong that whoever uses the GS better wins for the simple fact that Ripples have a longer range, thus they can be used for CB fire. Tanks are supposed to be killed by tanks and defenses, not artillery. And if an arty war keeps going for that long, might aswell start using Archangels, which have an even longer range and higher damage, iirc.

[crab_]

As you've posted above, it is clearly wrong that whoever uses the GS better wins for the simple fact that Ripples have a longer range, thus they can be used for CB fire. Tanks are supposed to be killed by tanks and defenses, not artillery. And if an arty war keeps going for that long, might aswell start using Archangels, which have an even longer range and higher damage, iirc.

On many maps you if built GS near to center of map your GS battery able to fire at any point of map, except far corners may be.
For example, height of NTW map is 150 tiles, so if you have GS near center of map you can attack every point of map (GS range 78).
If you have GS just 10-20 tiles before center line, then your GS can attack enemy bases.

1-2 shots from ground shaker kill lines of ripples instantly.
Modern tactic in artillery war is using artillery tanks (GS tiger tracks).
50 ripples can kill 1 ground shaker tank. 50 ground shaker tanks can kill 50 ripples tanks.

I played hundreds of artillery games and for me it is obvious that GS is overpowered.

[Alpha93]

1) How many artillery pieces are we talking about? 10? 20? 50? 100?
2) If you allow the enemy to take the center it isn't GS's fault for being OP, more like your fault for allowing your long range artillery to get into GS range by not stopping the enemy.
Also no, 50 GS can't kill 50 Ripples, unless you're massing them in ONE spot. And again, that's a tactical fault of the player, not of the weapon.

[Jorzi]

NTW artillery battles in a nutshell (since some lame-asses always forbid vtols, some NTW games end like this):
If the game hasn't been decided by the time one side gets needle guns, the only option is spamming ground shaker tiger tracks, cannon fortresses, wide spectrum sensors and some ripples in the rear (ripples have a fairly limited role compared to ground shakers). If both sides are fairly experienced in artillery warfare, this is just to keep up the fight until archangel missile is reached. After that, the battle is decided by whoever has a higher production capacity of archangels(tanks + batteries to maximize production). The tanks are also camping with repair facilities and cyborg mechanics to survive longer.

[crab_]

1) How many artillery pieces are we talking about? 10? 20? 50? 100?

For example, if we have game 4vs4, each player in team can build 20 GS. Total 80 GS, it is normal in team games.
Players can make GS emplacements and GS tanks. So total number of GS in one team can be more than 200.
Number of GS depends on amount of oil resources in game.

In last game i've played i had ~30 GS tanks. It was map with 20 oil per player. In high-oil game GS spam starts after you have researched GS.
In high-oil games is normal when each player has 100 GS tanks and many GS emplacements.

2) If you allow the enemy to take the center it isn't GS's fault for being OP, more like your fault for allowing your long range artillery to get into GS range by not stopping the enemy.

In normal game both teams have their positions around center line.
You need attack permanently to stop enemy from getting center.
On many maps you can build GS between center line and your base and it is enough.

I agree, to use GS properly you have to use proper other things. You should be defended.
GS is end-game weapon.
If map is big enough researching Archangels makes sense.

[crab_]

(since some lame-asses always forbid vtols, some NTW games end like this):

Even if VTOLs are allowed GS is "must have" weapon still.
VTOL usable if you can surprise enemies with early vtol attack, But if enemies are expect vtol-rush then only purpose of VTOL is catching enemy forces not covered by AA.
VTOL is perfect thing to defend your artillery from attacking tanks.
After some point of game AA becomes very strong and players spam them everythere. Role of VTOL in late game is defense.

Some players try to collect full army of heavy VTOLs and then they try to attack positions defended by AA.
But in but in general artillery war is going the same way both in vtol-game and non-vtol game.

[RBMW-Collector]

Hi guys. Balance is not good enough, so last champ shown that MG is OP in low oil game. MG Rush is the only way to resist MG rush, and it is no weapon that can resist mg at that role. The most wrong thing that MGs do - is dealing high damage against structures and trucked units. It have to fixed.

Also CANNONS in low oil is totaly useless. Too expensive to produce and to research.

There are at least three things In HIgh Oil that should be nerfed. There are INCENDARY MORTAR, TERMITE BOMBS and GROUND SHAKER. All this weapon is highest priority to use in multiplayer now. Any player who prefer another weapon must be much more skilled to finish match with his victory. Becouse of OP incendary mortars, HOWITZER becomes absolutely dull. I think it is necessary to increase its range and damage about 30%.

[crab_]

NoQ are you going to modify your patch in accordance to my suggestions?
I can make my own additions to your patch or i can make my own version of your patch.

More thinking about patch = more unsure in effect of some changes.
Increase hp of cannons it is transforming cannons to meat shields, which i consider wrong. On the other hand, this change is quite accurate and there is no certainty that it will give the desired effect, we need tests.
NoQ what is right way to test is light cannons balanced enough?

[NoQ]

I think cannons are currently on a "glass cannon" side, especially when used properly (fire not only concentrated, but also coherent; staying out of machinegun range). Complementing cannons with single-machinegun meatshields is effective in 3.1.0. The patch reduces meat shield role of machineguns and increases that of cannons, bringing them both to a roughly normal state. We would need a few 1x1 matches to see the state of early mg vs. cannon and cannon vs. rocket balance. Probably the cannon buff was not enough to fix the cannon vs. rocket balance.

I think that arty does not need further nerf, in any way. It needs a more careful description of its function. The reason for overusing it in those high oil matches of yours is its versatility; decreasing modifiers against tracks did not give the effect desired, we need to find another function for it, and avoid situations when it works beyond its function. I suggest leave this decision for the future.