Balance 3.1. Is possibly to fix before 3.2?

[crab_]

Difference between high-oil and low-oil.
High-oil: you can use ctrl+a to select all attack units and send them all at some spot.
Low-oil: you can't use ctrl+a, because some units was sent already to attack enemy oil.
So on low-oil you need manipulate of several groups of tanks, while on high-oil you can use ctrl+a.
Well. may be i just doint know better keyboard shortcuts.

I don't think that pure machineguns or pure cannons or pure flamers or pure rockets or pure arty should work at all.

NoQ, do we talking about 3.1 balance?
Pure stuff works even if you say "should not work at all" 100 times
In early game pure rockets or pure cannons can be countered.
But you can use pure rockets to counter pure MGs and in this case your pure rockets will work.
1) Lancer+MRA = pure rockets - works
2) Cannons on hover = pure cannons - works
Hover cannons can beat cyborgs. No counter for hover cannons.

solved trivially: rockets on halftracks are stronger than rockets on hovers because no with same ROF there is no hit-and-run advantage

Rockets have 30% less damage to hover. Do we talking about 3.1?

do not think that we should be able to counter hover hit and run without using cannons or rockets (as, in general, AP weapons should not work that well agains tanks)

So i expect something like: lancer halftracks > hpv halftracks > lancer hovers > medium cannon halftracks > lancer halftracks.

No. It is not for 3.1. It is looks more for 3.2 but we have more combinations.. dunno. it looks too complex.

[crab_]

.

How you can restrict players to unite their forces in unexpected attack at enemy position?

By making less chokepoints (playing flat map? you're asking for that), by nerfing hovers even further. Also, by the way, disabling shared research is quite a step in this direction (players can no longer produce same stuff, they'll be lacking other functions).

Well. At this part of discussion i'm agreed 100%
I'm not asked about flat maps. On flat maps it can be even easier to help your allies
I'm asked what is proper map layout to make team game well balanced and not favor some propulsions.
Too narrow map can produce the 'opposite' effect -> too much tracked units/too strong chokepoints

[NoQ]

Pure stuff works even if you say "should not work at all" 100 times

Do we talking about 3.1?

If we are still to see pure machineguns work, our patch is pointless. I do not insist on finer tuning for 3.1.1, but at least we should get combined arms working.

Yes/no: agree to nerf machinegun hp back or not?

[crab_]

If we are still to see pure machineguns work, our patch is pointless. I do not insist on finer tuning for 3.1.1, but at least we should get combined arms working.

I think pure MG will work if your enemy uses hover.
But if we make MG as AP-only weapon then MG can become useless because cyborgs not used in every game.
MG is weapon which controls level of use cyborgs/hover.
Hovers should not be very strong, So i think MG should be able to beat hovers or resist them at least.

Pure stuff works even if you say "should not work at all" 100 times

Do we talking about 3.1?

If we are still to see pure machineguns work, our patch is pointless. I do not insist on finer tuning for 3.1.1, but at least we should get combined arms working.

Yes/no: agree to nerf machinegun hp back or not?

np, i'm agreed.
i was not sure about HP so i've made this change lesser.
If you are sure - here is patch with MG HP in your version:

0001-Balance-Patch.3.1.1-v.7.patch

(39.33 KiB) Downloaded 315 times

Spoiler:

• Nerf machineguns. Reduce role of machineguns as meat shields.
  • Twin Machinegun:
    • Hit Points 125->75.
  • Heavy Machinegun:
    • Hit Points 150->75.
  • Assault Gun:
    • Hit Points 250->125.
  • Twin Assault Gun:
    • Hit Points 300->125.
  • Modifiers:
    • vs. Halftracks: 60->50.
    • vs. Tracks: 50->40.
    • vs. Medium structures: 80->60.
    • vs. Hard structures: 50->40.
    • vs. Bunkers: 75->50.
  • Upgrades:
    • First ROF Upgrade 17->20.
    • Second ROF Upgrade 34->38.
    • Third ROF Upgrade 50->45.
• Buff cannons, in order to match them up with rockets.
  • Light cannon
    • Hit Points 200->250.
    • Research Points 2400->1800.
    • Build Points 375 -> 300
  • Hyper Velocity Cannon:
    • Firepause 50 -> 43
  • Assault cannon:
    • Damage 35->40, Splash 25->35.
    • Build Points 800 -> 600
• Nerf flamers. Increase thermal armor of bodies in early game. Don't let flamer hovers chase other hovers.
  • Flamer:
    • Price 40->60
    • Incendiary Damage 28->20
  • Flamer Cyborg:
    • Price 50->65
    • Incendiary Damage 22->15
  • Inferno:
    • Price 110->130.
    • Weight 500->5000.
    • Incendiary Damage 32->26
  • Thermite Flamer Cyborg:
    • Price 80->100
    • Incendiary Damage 32->26
  • Plasmite Flamer:
    • Price 130->160
    • Weight 750->5000
    • Incendiary Damage 50->38
  • Incendiary Mortar:
    • Incendiary Radius 192->128
    • Splash Damage 70 -> 40
    • Damage 90 -> 80
  • Incendiary Howitzer:
    • Incendiary Damage 32->24
  • Thermite Bomb:
    • Incendiary Damage 120->95
    • Build Points 1000->1500
    • Damage 400 -> 350
  • Plasmite Bomb:
    • Incendiary Damage 140->115
    • Build Points 1000->2000
    • Splash Damage 1000 -> 750
    • type ALL ROUNDER -> ARTILLERY ROUND
  • Viper:
    • Thermal armor 4->8
  • Cobra:
    • Thermal armor 6->8
  • Bug:
    • Thermal armor 8->12
  • Leopard:
    • Thermal armor 6 -> 9
• Nerf hovers.
  • Hover propulsion:
    • Price 100->150.
    • Hit Points 150->100.
• Nerf transports.
  • Weapons removed from transports
• Ground shaker nerfed. Howitzer improved.
  • Ground Shaker:
    • Range 78 -> 64
  • Howitzer
    • Firepause (ROF) 150 -> 110
    • Range 35 -> 40
• Move lasers earlier.
  • Flashlight:
    • Pre-requisites: NSRB Mk2->NSRB Mk1.
    • Don't auto-upgrade to Pulse Laser.
    • Damage 80 -> 100

[NoQ]

But if we make MG as AP-only weapon then MG can become useless because cyborgs not used in every game.

As long as cyborgs may appear, you need to have MG ready. That's the whole point. And if they don't, i see no problem with MG being useless in one particular game. If the enemy fails to do his combined arms, and you don't, it is he who should be instantly dead, not you, with good balance.
_____________

Will reply later on the rest.

[crab_]

But if we make MG as AP-only weapon then MG can become useless because cyborgs not used in every game.

As long as cyborgs may appear, you need to have MG ready. That's the whole point. And if they don't, i see no problem with MG being useless in one particular game. If the enemy fails to do his combined arms, and you don't, it is he who should be instantly dead, not you, with good balance.

Ok. May be you right but we already nerfed MGs. So i think it can be too drastic change if we nerf MG more.

I foresee issue with cannons on late stage of game. TwinAC/HeavyC mixed with heavy cannon borgs = strong and i do not see couner for that.

Updated previous post - added patch v.7

[vexed]

...

for MGs... (no changes)

Spoiler:

• Nerf machineguns. Reduce role of machineguns as meat shields.
  • Twin Machinegun:
    • Hit Points 125->75.
  • Heavy Machinegun:
    • Hit Points 150->75.
  • Assault Gun:
    • Hit Points 250->125.
  • Twin Assault Gun:
    • Hit Points 300->125.
  • Modifiers:
    • vs. Halftracks: 60->50.
    • vs. Tracks: 50->40.
    • vs. Medium structures: 80->60.
    • vs. Hard structures: 50->40.
    • vs. Bunkers: 75->50.
  • Upgrades:
    • First ROF Upgrade 17->20.
    • Second ROF Upgrade 34->38.
    • Third ROF Upgrade 50->45.

for Cannons...

Spoiler:

• Buff cannons, in order to match them up with rockets.
  • Light cannon
    • Hit Points 200->250.
    • Research Points 2400->1800.
    • Build Points 375 -> 330
  • Hyper Velocity Cannon:
    • Firepause 50 -> 43
  • Assault cannon:
    • Damage 35->40, Splash 25->35.
    • Build Points 800 -> 650

Incendiary stuff...

Spoiler:

• Nerf flamers. Increase thermal armor of bodies in early game. Don't let flamer hovers chase other hovers.
  • Flamer:
    • Hit points 40->10
    • Price 40->60
    • Incendiary Damage 28->20
  • Flamer Cyborg:
    • Hit points 40->10
    • Price 50->65
    • Incendiary Damage 22->15
  • Inferno:
    • Hit points 40->15
    • Price 110->130.
    • Weight 500->5000.
    • Incendiary Damage 32->28
  • Thermite Flamer Cyborg:
    • Price 80->100
    • Incendiary Damage 32->26
  • Plasmite Flamer:
    • Price 130->160
    • Weight 750->5000
    • Incendiary Damage 50->42
  • Incendiary Mortar:
    • Incendiary Radius 192->128
    • Splash Damage 70 -> 50
    • Damage 90 -> 80
  • Incendiary Howitzer:
    • Incendiary Damage 32->24
  • Thermite Bomb:
    • Incendiary Damage 120->95
    • Build Points 1000->1500
    • Damage 400 -> 370
  • Plasmite Bomb:
    • Incendiary Damage 140->115
    • Build Points 1000->2000
    • Splash Damage 1000 -> 875
    • type ALL ROUNDER -> ARTILLERY ROUND
  • No change to thermal armor

for Hovers...

Spoiler:

• Nerf hovers.
  • Hover propulsion:
    • Price 100->150.
    • Hit Points 150->100.

for Transports...

Spoiler:

• Nerf transports.
  • • Cyborg transports
    • Weapons removed
    • Super Transporter
    • Weapon HMG->MG

for Arty ...

Spoiler:

• Ground shaker nerfed. Howitzer improved.
  • Ground Shaker:
    • Range 78 -> 64
  • Howitzer
    • Firepause (ROF) 150 -> 122
    • Range 35 -> 40

tech research

Spoiler:

• Move lasers earlier.
  • Flashlight:
    • Pre-requisites: NSRB Mk2->NSRB Mk1.
    • Don't auto-upgrade to Pulse Laser.
    • Damage 80 -> 100

You will see inline changes.

That should be the final changes, unless you got some very good reason(s) to change my mind.

Some of the arguments in this thread/IRC only pertain to obtaining large quantities of power quickly, and that shouldn't be a factor for obvious reasons.
Maybe in the future we can base the stats on how much power is available, (like have some kind of multiplier) but, right now, that isn't possible.
I also find it funny that some people complain on IRC and or threads, that there is no counter for X, when they turn off Y, so of course, if you disable something, not allowing people to produce a major part of the game, then you will throw off balance and end up with arty battles, or air wars, depending on what was disabled.
We have ground and air forces for a reason.

On initial hit (be it kinetic or thermal) that deals X damage amount.
If it was a kinetic hit, then the unit just gets X amount of damage, and that is it.
If it was a thermal hit, it does X damage, and if the unit catches on fire, it suffers Y more damage per sec for Z secs, since it is burning.

What we're trying to say is that it's sorta Y+15.

That isn't the case, look at the burn damage logs that I posted. You will always get Y damage for Z secs.

[crab_]

@vexed_

please explain
1) why Plasmite Bomb should have "ALL ROUNDER" damage type?
ALL ROUNDER is not for bombs, it is for cannons/rails
2) Why you changed
Light Cannon: Build Points 375 -> 330
This change is about nothing (too less to be noticeable i think)
3) Changes for thermal armor is neccesary. Because flamers are damage early units to red HP even if they have 0 incendiary damage. Chainging HP of flamers do not fixes them.

That isn't the case, look at the burn damage logs that I posted. You will always get Y damage for Z secs.

Hardcoded damage is additional damage for additional 10 seconds.


4) Why not remove weapon from Super Transport
VTOL version of MG is like Heavy Machinegun

[crab_]

Guys. i think you are still do not understand behaviour of flamers.
1) Flamers are weak in small groups. 4-5 flamers cannot kill 4-5 twin machineguns.
2) Flamers are very strong in large groups. 30 flamers can easily kill 30 twin machineguns.
3) Flamers are strong in narrow passages. Flamers are strong when you handle them carefully and catch enemy army.

Flamers have strong penetrate effect. It increases damage when you fight against large group of enemy units.

Flamers have the chance to apply incendiary damage.
This chance is very different.
Tank on light bodies have higher chance to get incendiary damage than medium and heavy bodies.
Yellow light body (bug) have the highest chance to get incendiary damage because this body is smaller body in the game.
Yellow bodies considered as bodies with high thermal armor but Bug body is worst choice against flamers.


In early game if enemy unit get incendiary damage then this enemy unit will be killed. Just because we have additional hardcoded damage.
Nerfing just incendiary damage for flamers do not change this behaviour. They still kill enemy units if chance to apply incendiary damage was happened.
I mean:
3.1.0: Flamers kill unit if unit got incendiary damage
3.1.1 (vexed version) Flamers kill unit if unit got incendiary damage
Maybe I'm wrong?
Well. i will test it and probably i can make video. But need more time.

[Alpha93]

@vexed_ 2) Why you changed
Light Cannon: Build Points 375 -> 330
This change is about nothing (too less to be noticeable i think)

Perhaps it will get built faster?
And again, last night I started an argument on IRC on why GS shouldn't be nerfed just because it becomes OP when you can spam infinite amounts of them.
I've been playing skirmishes with the normal balance against nullbot on hard. Flamers hardly ever prove to be a threat, as long as you can keep your distance and micromanage a bit. And you've got the orders panel for this (Long range).
I'd like an explanation from vexed though: why shouldn't the plasmite bomb be an artillery type of ammunition when all the bomb bays are? If anything, HEAP bombs should be all rounder since we've already got thermite bombs to clear borg formations.

[crab_]

@Alpha93 This balance changes related to Multiplayer games.
You know in last tournament flamers was banned.
I know many good players who confirm that flamers are overpowered.

Flamers hardly ever prove to be a threat, as long as you can keep your distance and micromanage a bit.

I'd suggest you to play Multiplayer.
Experienced player can use flamer very well.
I remember game where i managed to run away from flamers but enemy simply attacked my base and used my base to cover flamers.


As for GS. Nerfing GS will not touch classic games and will not touch scirmish games.
It will touch only team games med.oil/high/oil or FFA games like 1v1v1v1v1v1 on low-oil
I rememeber few FFA low-oil games which i finished with GS.
People playing high-oil games all time. Why not try to make these games better a bit?
Can you be kind to folks?

Did you had at least one active MP player in your IRC discussion?

We played 3.1.0 entire year. Balance patch based on experience of many MP games.
And goal of balance patch is try to fix glaring issues.


Flamer overpowered also because flamer research gives you other overpowered weapons: incendiary mortar, thermite bombs.
Also research of Inferno is very simple. Inferno research is easier to get than other weapons like lancer, HPC cannon etc.

[Alpha93]

Yes, I've had a discussion on IRC with MP players (core, Jorzi and Berg gave their input).
If the game would be played like it was meant to be played, none of these issues, aside the cannon one, would exist.
If the maps were designed with some thought, none of this would be an issue. But hey, that's what you get for playing open flat maps.
I also like how you imply that I don't play MP games. I do not play many multiplayer games, yes. On the other hand, I don't play WZ only. And I can't remember the last time that I saw flamers in huge numbers, aside the borgs getting their butts handed to them by AP weapons and artillery, like they should.

[crab_]

If the game would be played like it was meant to be played, none of these issues, aside the cannon one, would exist.

Wrong.

MG overpowered in any game. I won hundred classic games just with pure MG.
Incendiary mortar overpowered in classic games. Fact.
1 VTOl unit with thermite bomb can destoy entire base or kill small army (6 bombs is very high damage).
Thermite bombs are overpowered in classic games. But most of classic games just do not continue long enough to get thermite vtol.
Flamers overpowered in classic low-oil games, but not in any case. This depends on map.
why need arguing with clear data....
Hover propulsion overpowered on large maps (low-oil).

If the game would be played like it was meant to be played

Then remove 5x5 games. This is wrong games. Game not meant to be played 5vs5
Games meant to be played... this is illusion. Unreachable thing always pretend to be ideal....

If the maps were designed with some thought, none of this would be an issue.

This is illusion. Warzone balance data it is actually scrapyard.
Old years balancers were cared only of few things and only in early game
I think Warzone balance meant to be played 1vs1, 2vs2, 1vs1vs1vs1vs1.

Old balance was shifted, Ask Iluvalar, he can tell many changed things.
How game can be balanced if old balance just messed up?
Accuracy changed. Rate-of-Fire changed, Unit preview changed. Half-build removed, Unit preview removed.

Lets see. Is this balance when 1 thermite kills vengeance units so easy? It was in 2.3.9
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJdm3YJusgc

I agree. Right maps is vital part of balance. BUT We do not have right maps. We did not had right maps in past.

[Alpha93]

If the game would be played like it was meant to be played, none of these issues, aside the cannon one, would exist.

Wrong.

MG overpowered in any game. I won hundred classic games just with pure MG. This is because of "Minimum damage". Remove it and MG will be fine again.
Incendiary mortar overpowered in classic games. Fact. Incendiary mortar is not an early game weapon. By mid game you should at least have the first howitzer, which outranges it
1 VTOl unit with thermite bomb can destoy entire base or kill small army (6 bombs is very high damage).
Thermite bombs are overpowered in classic games. But most of classic games just do not continue long enough to get thermite vtol. Fact: unless it has been changed, thermite bombs drop 2 bombs, not 6. Also, most of the times VTOLs are turned off, so your argument is invalid.
Flamers overpowered in classic low-oil games, but not in any case. This depends on map. Flamers get quickly outdated unless the guy is going for pure flamers, which will be weak to anything that can hit and run properly
why need arguing with clear data....
Hover propulsion overpowered on large maps (low-oil). Again, only on flat maps, maps with lots of water or maps that have too much open space. Guess why Hover isn't as effective in Campaign as it is in MP.

If the game would be played like it was meant to be played

Then remove 5x5 games. This is wrong games. Game not meant to be played 5vs5
Games meant to be played... this is illusion. Unreachable thing always pretend to be ideal.... Game wasn't meant to be played with INFINITE energy on a flat barren land, which is what pure NTW maps are. Also don't give me the BS that the way of playing being an illusion. If it was, no game would be ever developed.

And with this I'm done, not gonna argue a balance patch that balances most of the stuff around NTW maps (cannons aside) while f*****g up everything else.

[crab_]

Fact: unless it has been changed, thermite bombs drop 2 bombs, not 6. Also, most of the times VTOLs are turned off, so your argument is invalid.

When it was changed? What you saying about? We are not discuss old times here.

Incendiary mortar is not an early game weapon. By mid game you should at least have the first howitzer, which outranges it

howitzer is useless spending of money.
Howitzer cannot protect your base but incendiary mortar is best defense in middle game.

6. Also, most of the times VTOLs are turned off, so your argument is invalid.

Turn off vtols is lame games. Folks dont like VTOL because VTOL can be very unxpected and overpowered.

Flamers get quickly outdated unless the guy is going for pure flamers, which will be weak to anything that can hit and run properly

Hover flamers can catch other units. Hover inferno is strong unit and hover inferno can kill any armies may be except hover MGs.

This is because of "Minimum damage". Remove it and MG will be fine again.

When it was changed? What you saying about? We are not discuss old times here.
Machineguns in 2.3.x versions had wrong rate of fire.
In 2.3.x rate of fire was dependent on FPS

Game wasn't meant to be played with INFINITE energy on a flat barren land, which is what pure NTW maps

Most balance issues listed by me related to low-oil games.
And i said about 5vs5 games in low-oil settings.

And with this I'm done, not gonna argue a balance patch that balances most of the stuff around NTW maps (cannons aside) while f*****g up everything else.

Most balance issues listed by me related to low-oil games.
Ask NoQ - he hates high-oil but he is agreed with most changes.
I have only one change related to high-oil is GS range reducing. All other changes is for low-oil.

You saying in disrespectful manner. I refuse to continue discussion with you. Anyway it is useless because you are not MP player.


I'm sorry. This topic going to be flame balt. I am to blame.