Balance 3.1. Is possibly to fix before 3.2?

[crab_]

I think that arty does not need further nerf, in any way. It needs a more careful description of its function. The reason for overusing it in those high oil matches of yours is its versatility; decreasing modifiers against tracks did not give the effect desired, we need to find another function for it, and avoid situations when it works beyond its function. I suggest leave this decision for the future.

I only asked for nerf Ground Shaker, and safe way to nerf Ground Shaker is reducing range and increasing build time.
I'm afraid long ranged artillery is thing which cannot be balanced very good.

But on the other hand howitzer too weak. Totaly useless even in high-oil matches.

The reason for overusing it in those high oil matches of yours is its versatility;

I think reason is ability to "concatenate" damage from all team members into one point of map.
More larger team => more damage.
Another reason why artillery strong is ability to use any unit as aimer. Even vtols are used as sensors for artillery
Fire of long ranged artillery never stops, forces enemy to attack immediately.

For Flamers I have new solution: increase thermal armor just for light bodies. This change should be applied to your current list of changes. This change needed to ensure early flamers are nerfed. Light bodies suffer from flamers much more than other bodies because of small size.

We would need a few 1x1 matches to see the state of early mg vs. cannon and cannon vs. rocket balance

I will make this tests, please wait 1-2 days and i will say my results.

[crab_]

Hello.
Here is balance patch v.6

Changes, comparing to v.5:
- viper, bug, cobra, leopard - increased thermal armor
- transports - weapons removed
- Plasmite Bomb - nerfed more
- Ground Shaker - reduced range, Howitzer - increased damage
- Incendiary Mortar - nerfed more
- HPV Cannon improved

0001-Balance-Patch.3.1.1-v.6.patch

(39.2 KiB) Downloaded 253 times

Spoiler:

• Nerf machineguns. Reduce role of machineguns as meat shields.
  • Twin Machinegun:
    • Hit Points 125->75.
  • Heavy Machinegun:
    • Hit Points 150->100.
  • Assault Gun:
    • Hit Points 250->175.
  • Twin Assault Gun:
    • Hit Points 300->225.
  • Modifiers:
    • vs. Halftracks: 60->50.
    • vs. Tracks: 50->40.
    • vs. Medium structures: 80->60.
    • vs. Hard structures: 50->40.
    • vs. Bunkers: 75->50.
  • Upgrades:
    • First ROF Upgrade 17->20.
    • Second ROF Upgrade 34->38.
    • Third ROF Upgrade 50->45.
• Buff cannons, in order to match them up with rockets.
  • Light cannon
    • Hit Points 200->250.
    • Research Points 2400->1800.
    • Build Points 375 -> 300
  • Hyper Velocity Cannon:
    • Firepause 50 -> 43
  • Assault cannon:
    • Damage 35->40, Splash 25->35.
    • Build Points 800 -> 600
• Nerf flamers. Increase thermal armor of bodies in early game. Don't let flamer hovers chase other hovers.
  • Flamer:
    • Price 40->60
    • Incendiary Damage 28->20
  • Flamer Cyborg:
    • Price 50->65
    • Incendiary Damage 22->15
  • Inferno:
    • Price 110->130.
    • Weight 500->5000.
    • Incendiary Damage 32->26
  • Thermite Flamer Cyborg:
    • Price 80->100
    • Incendiary Damage 32->26
  • Plasmite Flamer:
    • Price 130->160
    • Weight 750->5000
    • Incendiary Damage 50->38
  • Incendiary Mortar:
    • Incendiary Radius 192->128
    • Splash Damage 70 -> 40
    • Damage 90 -> 80
  • Incendiary Howitzer:
    • Incendiary Damage 32->24
  • Thermite Bomb:
    • Incendiary Damage 120->95
    • Build Points 1000->1500
    • Damage 400 -> 350
  • Plasmite Bomb:
    • Incendiary Damage 140->115
    • Build Points 1000->2000
    • Splash Damage 1000 -> 750
    • type ALL ROUNDER -> ARTILLERY ROUND
  • Viper:
    • Thermal armor 4->8
  • Cobra:
    • Thermal armor 6->8
  • Bug:
    • Thermal armor 8->12
  • Leopard:
    • Thermal armor 6 -> 9
• Nerf hovers.
  • Hover propulsion:
    • Price 100->150.
    • Hit Points 150->100.
• Nerf transports.
  • Weapons removed from transports
• Ground shaker nerfed. Howitzer improved.
  • Ground Shaker:
    • Range 78 -> 64
  • Howitzer
    • Firepause (ROF) 150 -> 110
    • Range 35 -> 40
• Move lasers earlier.
  • Flashlight:
    • Pre-requisites: NSRB Mk2->NSRB Mk1.
    • Don't auto-upgrade to Pulse Laser.
    • Damage 80 -> 100

Detailed Changelog (by WzStats tool)

balance-3-1-1-v6 ChangeLogFull.txt

(6.04 KiB) Downloaded 251 times

NoQ your patch does not work in my TortioseGit, it says patch has wrong format when i try to apply patch

[crab_]

Wtf, my message displayed wrong.

Note, patch v.6 was tested only technically (did not tested in real mutiplayer game yet)

[NoQ]

Why did you bump mg hp back?

Wtf, my message displayed wrong.

I see that too.

[crab_]

Why did you bump mg hp back?

Just make this more 'smoother' and make hp increase for each new MG
3.1.0: 125, 150, 250, 300
Your variant: 75, 75, 125, 125
My variant: 75, 100, 175, 225
Well, i can roll-back to your variant, not sure

Why did you bump mg hp back?

Wtf, my message displayed wrong.

I see that too.

It was

Spoiler:

tag placed between two

• tags. Fixed.

[NoQ]

Well, i can roll-back to your variant, not sure

I don't think machineguns need many hit points to fulfill their anti-cyborg function. Their huge damages are sort of enough, as cyborgs don't do much damage anyway, and late cyborgs aren't really existing anyway ...

By the way, we didn't nerf assault gun cyborgs much

[crab_]

don't think machineguns need many hit points to fulfill their anti-cyborg function.

MG also have anti-hover function.
I just cannot estimate effect of changing HP. When we change Damage it has some linear function. But effectiveness of HP is not linear. I mean changing HP can make units underpowered or overpowered in certain cases but not in all cases.

By the way, we didn't nerf assault gun cyborgs much

We reduced ROF of AG 10% and damage modifiers.
Damage to half-tracks reduced 16%.
So AG Cyborg DPS to half-track was nerfed ~25%.

[NoQ]

Nerfing HP is much like buffing enemy ROF. It's a much simplier thing than damage, which mixes up with armor in some weird ways.

edit: not really, of course, as weapon hp adds up ... but still quite simple. By the way, do hp upgrades work on weapon hp

MG also have anti-hover function.

I think the only possible use of hovers should be to carry lancers and MRAs in hit-and-run. And it's natural to counter hit-and-run with slow-ROF weapons such as HPV cannons*; if we allow high-ROF weapons like machineguns to counter hit-and-run, then they start getting too much DPS against other targets.

__________
* Let me remind that the whole point of hit-and-run is as follows: if your weapon has same DPS but slower ROF, doing hit and run reduces enemy ROF to yours, as you're not in range while recharging. This gives you a buff proportional to ROF:ROF ratio. That's why high-ROF weapons should suffer the most from hit-and-run, and we shouldn't expect them to counter it.

[crab_]

Nerfing HP is much like buffing enemy ROF. It's a much simplier thing than damage, which mixes up with armor in some weird ways.

hmm. ok.
MG Damage is 33%

By the way, do hp upgrades work on weapon hp

Yes.

I think the only possible use of hovers should be to carry lancers and MRAs in hit-and-run.

I disagree. We have lack of propulsion, in most games we select between half-tracks and hover and that's all.

1) In team games hover units make players able to unite their armies and attack separated enemy armies.
Effectiveness of hover are strongly dependent on map layout.

And it's natural to counter hit-and-run with slow-ROF weapons such as HPV cannons*

2) Counter to hit&run is using hovers or cyborgs.
To resist hit&run/hover we make cannons/hover flamer/hover MG/hover.

if we allow high-ROF weapons like machineguns to counter hit-and-run, then they start getting too much DPS against other targets.

MG counters hit&run because lancer/mra army cannot run from mg/hover.
Plus rockets have less damage to hover.
Plus MG damage to hover is 2 times stronger than to track/half-tracks.

So MG is counter to hover. And i do not see why we need disallow this.

That's why high-ROF weapons should suffer the most from hit-and-run, and we shouldn't expect them to counter it.

1. Hover is not only hit&run.
2. MG can resist hover units.

Well. i think MG on half-tracks cannot resist to hit&run hover army.
But its wrong to use hover army against MG. If you see MG with half-tracks and you have rockets - better use rockets on half-tracks than on hover

[NoQ]

By the way, do hp upgrades work on weapon hp

I guess they do.

In team games hover units make players able to unite their armies and attack separated enemy armies.

This has nothing to do with hit and run.

2) Counter to hit&run is using hovers or cyborgs.
To resist hit&run/hover we make cannons/hover flamer/hover MG/hover.

Explain.

Effectiveness of hover are strongly dependent on map layout.

I remind that we cannot produce balance as long as we expect more than one set of map making guidelines to work.

If you see MG with half-tracks and you have rockets - better use rockets on half-tracks than on hover

My experience is quite opposite. I think your high oil "experience" interferes here, where tactics are impossible, and no hit-and-run is ever done at all, due to human inability of controlling too many units, and also large amounts of free cyborgs.

[crab_]

I updated my previous message.

I remind that we cannot produce balance as long as we expect more than one set of map making guidelines to work.

Agreed
But we talking about 3.1 version now. So here we trying to do something just to fix glaring issues

2) Counter to hit&run is using hovers or cyborgs.
To resist hit&run/hover we make cannons/hover flamer/hover MG/hover.

Explain.

Can you say how counter attacking army lancer/mra on hover?
If you play cannons - the best thing is make hover cannons.
If you play MG - best thing is make hover MG.
If you play flamers - use hover flamers.
If you use artillery - use hover artillery.

My experience is quite opposite. I think your high oil "experience" interferes here, where tactics are impossible, and no hit-and-run is ever done at all, due to human inability of controlling too many units, and also large amounts of free cyborgs.

Did you played with anything except hit&run hovers? I think it is your favorite tactics. But this is not tactics. Just overusing speed ability of fast units
Well. Army of hover units requires more micromagamenet and if you was quite accurate this army is better than rockets on half-tracks.
But why i need micromanage my hover army if i can make army 100% more defended?

Actually in classic games we have to control more things than in high-oil games. So we hvae the same "inability of controlling" too many things.

[NoQ]

But why i need micromanage my hover army if i can make army 100% more defended?

Because you give your enemy 900% more ROF (if you are careless enough to allow enemy AGs land four shots on you before you run in the hit-and-run scenario).

Actually in classic games we have to control more things than in high-oil games.

Lolwhat? You have many times less stuff on the board.

If you play cannons - the best thing is make hover cannons.
If you play MG - best thing is make hover MG.
If you play flamers - use hover flamers.
If you use artillery - use hover artillery.

Don't we expect none of these "play..." things to work at all? Don't we expect to have combined arms actually work after this patch?

[crab_]

Effectiveness of hover are strongly dependent on map layout.

I remind that we cannot produce balance as long as we expect more than one set of map making guidelines to work.

I think i can find many maps made by you with very different layout. So even in set of your maps effectiveness of hovers can be different.
What way to make hovers balanced in team games? How you can restrict players to unite their forces in unexpected attack at enemy position?

Because you give your enemy 900% more ROF (if you are careless enough to allow enemy AGs land two shots on you before you run).

Ok. You are master of hit&run
I just dont like rockets/hover and did not knew about 900% effect.

Lolwhat? You have many times less stuff on the board.

At high-oil you operate your armires.
At low-oil you operate your units.

In low-oil games we need much more micromanagement to do following:
1) Attack enemy derricks from different positions
2) Look at our derricks and re-build them if they were desrtoyed
3) Defend derricks if enemy tried to attack it with small groups of tanks
4) Each unit with red HP should be covered and cured at repair center
5) We should look for oil drums. Oil drums are appear randomly on map.
Well. Total amount of micromanagement is dependent on map and team settings.
In 1v1 game on start_up we have free hands but on another maps we should care about many stuff.

btw. "lolwhat" is disrespectful form. I think you are not school boy so please do not behave like school boy

[crab_]

Don't we expect none of these "play..." things to work at all? Don't we expect to have combined arms actually work after this patch?

Plese explain. This patch is for fixing know issues. What issue with combined arms?
Plese say what proper way to counter lancer/mra on hovers?

[NoQ]

I think i can find many maps made by you with very different layout. So even in set of your maps effectiveness of hovers can be different.

Hence i confirm again that most, if not all, of my maps are bad, being a product of trial and error.

1) Attack enemy derricks from different positions
2) Look at our derricks and re-build them if they were desrtoyed
3) Defend derricks if enemy tried to attack it with small groups of tanks

Two or three clicks per minute, unless the oil is too much spread out.

4) Each unit with red HP should be covered and cured at repair center

Automated by the game engine. Covering is a single movement of the whole army.

5) We should look for oil drums. Oil drums are appear randomly on map.

Should be nerfed anyway.

What way to make hovers balanced in team games?

What issue with combined arms?
Plese say what proper way to counter lancer/mra on hovers?

I don't think that pure machineguns or pure cannons or pure flamers or pure rockets or pure arty should work at all. With proper balance, we should expect to always have a mix of at least two. So i believe that we are having, generally speaking, just two sorts of problems: countering rocket hovers with xxx/rockets faction that does not use hovers (solved trivially: rockets on halftracks are stronger than rockets on hovers because no with same ROF there is no hit-and-run advantage), and countering rocket hovers with xxx/cannons faction, which would probably involve switching to more low-dps-high-rof weapons such as HPV, and maybe mixing more cyborgs as meat shields (which are strong in the cannon line). I do not think that we should be able to counter hover hit and run without using cannons or rockets (as, in general, AP weapons should not work that well agains tanks).

So i expect something like: lancer halftracks > hpv halftracks > lancer hovers > medium cannon halftracks > lancer halftracks.

How you can restrict players to unite their forces in unexpected attack at enemy position?

By making less chokepoints (playing flat map? you're asking for that), by nerfing hovers even further. Also, by the way, disabling shared research is quite a step in this direction (players can no longer produce same stuff, they'll be lacking other functions).