Start game conditions (changed in master)

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Iluvalar
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Iluvalar » 09 Dec 2012, 22:21

NoQ wrote:Bump this. I strongly believe that paid derricks encourage spending extra money on mg towers instead, highly promoting tower rushes and lock-ins. You can now build over 10 towers before you need to capture your first derrick, which is enough to lock your opponent in his base for a good 10 minutes.

I'm not sure what else changes though.
HMG... The accuracy bug and the prophetic glitch make it one of the more boosted weapon of all. I dont believe it's much related to the derrick change...
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Per » 09 Dec 2012, 22:59

Currently the amount of oil on a map totally changes game dynamics in somewhat unpredictable ways. Paid derricks and more expensive power generators changes this, and adds more strategy to the game, since you need to invest to get income. So I think that whatever else may happen, this change is a correct one, and we should rather change other things to fit, than revert this change.

What we need is a good counter to mg towers, and I think that need exists wholly independently of the above change. I have been testing out some approaches, but found nothing worth talking about yet.

I would note though that if the above comment from NoQ is correct, one way to fix the problem may be simply to start with less power...

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Reg312 » 09 Dec 2012, 23:37

Per wrote:Currently the amount of oil on a map totally changes game dynamics in somewhat unpredictable ways. Paid derricks and more expensive power generators changes this, and adds more strategy to the game, since you need to invest to get income.
100$ per derrick is just too much
i play warzone every day, and i feel this is too much
Per wrote: What we need is a good counter to mg towers, and I think that need exists wholly independently of the above change. I have been testing out some approaches, but found nothing worth talking about yet.
correction "to heavy mg towers"
first we have to rename MG tower to its truthful name!!
Per wrote: I would note though that if the above comment from NoQ is correct, one way to fix the problem may be simply to start with less power...
NoQ's comment should be proofed by video or something
i just dont understand how it works in his comment
but i'll try

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by NoQ » 10 Dec 2012, 15:10

I'm not sure what exactly should i prove and how exactly a video can help. Here's how a standard tower rush may look on current master: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tsd9Vk2iEE The AI, executing a fastest possible tank rush has 3 tanks by the time i reach his base, getting 3 more tanks in the next 30 seconds. By this time i can easily setup a few towers, burning my extra power almost very quickly with 4 trucks at his base.

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by NoQ » 13 Dec 2012, 18:25

Uhm Per: if we set it to 1000, then somebody will have to fix all AIs to make sure they don't hand with zero power.

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Per » 13 Dec 2012, 20:42

NoQ wrote:Uhm Per: if we set it to 1000, then somebody will have to fix all AIs to make sure they don't hand with zero power.
Wouldn't that be a good idea anyhow? :)

I fixed Semperfi JS. Semperfi classic and Nexus worked without changes.

In any case, let's try it out for a bit and see what it feels like. Ok?

From my own play testing, it seemed like the right way to go. Less sim city, more strategy, right away.

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by aubergine » 14 Dec 2012, 14:47

It makes starting with full bases practically mandatory when you have ultimate scav mod installed, otherwise it's almost certain death by their choppers or first land rush.
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by NoQ » 14 Dec 2012, 15:11

Less sim city, more strategy
What i felt was *more* sim city, *more* strategy. Players need to hold back for a while and wait patiently while getting enough power to proceed (while the curious question is how much exactly patient they need to be) this makes the early game slower, even though it was already thought of as slow (?)

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Per » 14 Dec 2012, 17:06

I think the slowness of the early game is mostly due to having to watch all those required buildings be slowly constructed before you can do anything of importance. This is easily fixed by reducing their build time (and/or starting with HQ pre-built even in no-base).

@aubergine - we can't adjust our game balance to fit unofficial mods... it has to be the other way around.

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Iluvalar » 14 Dec 2012, 18:07

First thing first, I want to stand my point : The biggest changes here are the hmg unwanted boost.

But I'd like to point out solutions in NRS that would nerf that strategy enough.

1- The old derrick tax, now known as external financing (1/3 from outside de map). Would balance the odds a little. In standard, NoQ end this strategy with 10 oil vs 4. With external financing, he would end at 5 vs 9 . A gap from 250% to 180% more power.
2- Interest rate : we see NoQ wasting power at high speed. So much power worth probably 2 civilians/derricks anyway.
3- The ability to research BB from start and then upgrade them as the main weapon line would give the "defending" player a nice option to get rid of NoQ.
4- New weapons modifier clean up left all the structures only resistant against 25% of the weapons (.aw) .flamer, .laser, .burner and weak against 3 differents choices : (.as) .bb , .bomb, .quark . Not like in standard where 75% of the starting weapons are weak vs structures : rockets, mg, flamers. Only leaving cannons as the only option.


Per, I suggest you give the outside financing a fair try : give 1/3 of the power to everyplayers whenever they built those derricks or not, and nerf the derricks to 2/3 of their actual power.
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 15 Dec 2012, 02:55

@Per: Don't listen to Iluvalar. Warzone 2100's method of handling power generation doesn't need any "outside financing" or what not. Gameplay mechanics like that (along with, admittingly, Contingency's own alternate means of generating power) should probably be left to modding, since they may not always fit in well within Warzone 2100's post-apocalyptic, hard science-fiction setting.

Also, keep in mind that, while building the starting structures may be slow, quite a bit of micromanaging can happen during that time, such as ordering trucks to secure oil, researching technologies, and (especially) scouting. This kind of behavior, as far as I'm aware, is quite common amongst RTS games in general, including Command & Conquer and StarCraft, especially among more experienced players, though since players can queue up a list of multiple structures in Warzone 2100, I wouldn't be surprised if some more of the less experienced players (not all of them of course) would likewise focus more on other things while waiting for their base to be set up.

Finally, so long as players start with enough power to set up a factory, a research lab, an HQ, a power generator, 2 oil derricks, and 2 trucks, then I'm fine with that.

@aubergine: We should discuss with NoQ on how to ensure that the scavengers play more fair with these new settings. Personally, while integrating Ultimate Scavengers to Contingency, I changed the Ultimate Scavenger AI's scripting so that it would give players enough time to research some basic anti-air weaponry, such as Cyborg Machinegunners and Mini-Rocket Pods.
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Iluvalar » 15 Dec 2012, 09:01

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:@Per: Don't listen to Iluvalar. Warzone 2100's method of handling power generation doesn't need any "outside financing" or what not. Gameplay mechanics like that (along with, admittingly, Contingency's own alternate means of generating power) should probably be left to modding, since they may not always fit in well within Warzone 2100's post-apocalyptic, hard science-fiction setting.
It is totally natural to tax players who are alone in their maps once they killed all resistance. As I always say, that's why we do war ! power ! And to send more resources to frontiers that struggle to defend their position (as long as they survive).

There is nothing there that doesn't perfectly fit the post-apocalyptic scheme. We do it ourself in a small scale; Use power from safe zone and spend more into the action.
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 15 Dec 2012, 11:50

Just did a test game on master, and it seems as if the AI couldn't handle my tank rush of only 3 machinegun tanks, while I only encountered one machinegun tank from the enemy. My guess is that the Oil Derricks costed so much ($100 per derrick?! :shok: ) that there wasn't as much of a need for multiple trucks (though the AI didn't know better :P ).

If I had to pick a few optimal build orders, I'd probably choose a FttRCP build order so that I could get my 1st few Machinegun tanks out, or a RFtCP build order if I wanted to rush for Machinegun Towers, or maybe even a :shok: FttRPddddC build order for an early economic advantage (though probably only for large maps). I probably wouldn't have any need to send any trucks out to the middle of the map, unless I wanted to block off a chokepoint with a well-placed Machinegun Tower. :wink:
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by aubergine » 15 Dec 2012, 12:42

@Iluvalar: In a post apocalyptic setting, I'd be likely to decapitate anyone who mentioned tax, money, banking or other absurd things that make the world a terrible place to live in pre-apocalypse. In warzone there isn't really a concept of money (although power amounts are often prefixed with $ as people disturbingly seem to be able to relate to numbers that have an S with a | through it for some reason). The power in warzone is, if I understand correctly, a process of converting oil in to some sort of electromagnetic energy that can then be used to construct things in the real world. Money, on the other hand, it just a way for humans to justify really bad decision making based on little more than a sense of entitlement and mandatory worship of "number" glyphs preceeded by a "currency" glyph. You can't, for example, use a bunch of dollar bills represented in pixels on some computer screen to reprap a real-life building. So the notion of tax, banking and finance in WZ is literally un-sane.

@Shadow, what does "d" stand for in this: FttRPddddC (derrick? damage? dancing?)
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 15 Dec 2012, 13:38

Besides, I doubt that currency would be making a return within a half-century after the Collapse, since currency requires an established form of government in order to work. If any trade existed in the post-Collapse world of Warzone 2100, then it would've most likely been conducted through barter. (For example, trading 100 chickens for a Plasma Cannon.)

Edit: @aubergine: "d" stands for "derrick".
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