Start game conditions (changed in master)

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Reg312
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Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Reg312 » 02 Oct 2012, 14:54

Hello
Just found new fix made by Per in master version:
Add minipod tower research to full base starts. Change starting power
for all base starts to 2000 (from 1300 for no base and 2500 for others).

http://developer.wz2100.net/changeset/d ... 9b3efcff84

i want to discuss such changes in open discussion

1. Why mini-pod tower was added? is it fix or new feature in master?
2. Why start power was changed? what was wrong?

small suggestion:
3. Heavy MG Hardpoint requires MG bunker to be pre-researched
i think this pre-requisite should be removed

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Andrie
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Andrie » 02 Oct 2012, 15:14

You mean big suggestion.
And Per why did you change that?
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Per » 02 Oct 2012, 16:14

Mini-pod tower tech was requested by map maker(s), to clear them for full base start placement. (It looks very bad to have starting buildings that you couldn't have built on ordinary maps.) It is a new feature in master.

Start power has been unified between different base start settings. It was increased for no base starts to compensate for derricks now being more expensive (again, in master only).

I am making a few changes that have been planned a long time, most have been also been discussed a long time, and I'm planning to open a discussion thread on them later. These are all changes that you will have plenty of time to playtest and discuss before they end up in a release. For now, consider them test features.

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Reg312 » 02 Oct 2012, 16:38

Per wrote: Start power has been unified between different base start settings. It was increased for no base starts to compensate for derricks now being more expensive (again, in master only).
did you meant that fix: https://github.com/Warzone2100/warzone2 ... 9aaffad32c
i can say: 100$ for derrick is too high
played few games with paid derricks. it was very annoying for players

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Per » 02 Oct 2012, 17:01

Just calling it "annoying" won't convince anyone. Care to elaborate?

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Reg312 » 02 Oct 2012, 17:22

Per wrote:Just calling it "annoying" won't convince anyone. Care to elaborate?
players have "automated" build orders/strategies
all this should be adjusted to new derricks price

so that change will be biggest balance change in years,

you setted price to 100$, is it went from feelings or what logic you used?

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Per » 02 Oct 2012, 18:54

Reg312 wrote:players have "automated" build orders/strategies
all this should be adjusted to new derricks price
Correct. I do not see that this is an argument for or against anything.
Reg312 wrote: you setted price to 100$, is it went from feelings or what logic you used?
I tried various prices. 200 was a bit over the top, while 50 did not have much impact. 100 did have an impact as desired, making derricks something more than a no-brainer investment, without crippling the builds I tried.

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Reg312 » 02 Oct 2012, 19:13

Per wrote: Correct. I do not see that this is an argument for or against anything.
this was just my remark :)

some ideas:
1) each next derrick should have higher price
2) upgradeable derricks - you can invest 100$ in upgrade to make derrick more effecient


so.. with paid derricks i see some future issues
item1: losing team will lose game faster and more hopelessly because they lose more $ with each lost derrick

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by NoQ » 05 Oct 2012, 14:30

I suggest at least $2200 as starting money, for it is just enough to compensate 8 derricks and two generators increased cost.

Also, i wonder how it affects rush vs. tech balance. You have a chance to build more tanks instead of derricks, but if you are unable to build derricks to instantly utilize territory you won by that, then it doesn't make much effect if the opponent is able to survive. So rush strategies become more all-in this way.

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Iluvalar » 06 Oct 2012, 22:28

Reg312 wrote: 1) each next derrick should have higher price
2) upgradeable derricks - you can invest 100$ in upgrade to make derrick more effecient
1- I suggest instead like in NRS an outside financing input instead. You give a little share (25% in NRS) of the power to everyone. You reduce the derricks a little so they worth 75% of the power in the map.

For exemple if there is 7 oil per player in the map. They would worth ~10% of the expected power each :
0 derrick = 25% ($0)
1 derrick = 35% ($100)
2 derrick = 45% ($100)
[...] more than normal ↑
7 derrick = 100% ($700)
[...] less than normal ↓
14 derrick = 170% (1400$)

This
A) Solve the situation where a player have no power and no derricks.
B) Helps player that are losing have a little bit more chances to resist


2- I think upgrading the derricks would just be a tedious. Specially in the normal tree where new research like that are forced in the path of each games.
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Reg312 » 06 Oct 2012, 23:41

in Warzone, if one of your teammates lost his base - whole game lost just because enemys got much more power
i dont like this. player who got noob's oil can increase production x2.
e.g. in 3x3 game, 1 lost base => game become like 2v4 (1 player lost oil, 1 enemy got x2 oil)
in warzone olny perfectly balanced teams can make great games

current solution - put oil outside bases, but this forces player to truck races and tedious micro-management

as one of solutions i suggest uppgradeable derricks
base oil can provide 70% of your power, but only with paid upgrades
if enemy kille you base he can get addition to his oil, but he need time and $$ to upgrade captured derricks to achieve 200% power income.


"financing input" can be crazy when defeated player can recover from 0$
hmm not sure if i undestood your suggestion..

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Andrie » 10 Oct 2012, 13:23

Reg312 wrote:base oil can provide 70% of your power, but only with paid upgrades
if enemy kille you base he can get addition to his oil, but he need time and $$ to upgrade captured derricks to achieve 200% power income.
I like you Idea. :wink:
And you meat killed instead of kille. :lol2:
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by aubergine » 11 Oct 2012, 00:52

What about making upgrade to the HQ and within a certain radius any oil derricks get a boost. As player can only have 1 HQ this prevents them from getting big boost by taking over enemy base. It also opens up more decision making about where to put your HQ on a map - maybe there's a big cluster of oil in the middle of the map, put your HQ there for big bonus, but it's risky place to defend, etc.

EDIT: Or allow the upgrading of derricks as previously mentioned, but the upgrades only take effect if the derrick is within a certain distance of the HQ. Maybe multiple upgrades allow greater distance from HQ? This way placement of HQ is still important to get best results, there's limit to how many "super derricks" a player can have due to range to HQ, no need to update any existing maps, etc.
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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by NoQ » 09 Dec 2012, 18:28

Bump this. I strongly believe that paid derricks encourage spending extra money on mg towers instead, highly promoting tower rushes and lock-ins. You can now build over 10 towers before you need to capture your first derrick, which is enough to lock your opponent in his base for a good 10 minutes.

I'm not sure what else changes though.

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Re: Start game conditions (changed in master)

Post by Reg312 » 09 Dec 2012, 18:41

NoQ: i think better if someone will test it in several games. i can help with finding good opponents :)


my new crazy idea:
Add to game second type of derrick with higher income and price.
- nerf standard derricks by 50%
- new derrcick with 100$ will be 100%

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