Sunburst AA site balance

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ThinkSome
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Sunburst AA site balance

Post by ThinkSome » 28 Feb 2019, 21:38

From http://betaguide.wz2100.net/weapons.php

Code: Select all

type of AA   range    damage/min       cost    damage/min/cost
sunburst     12       131*28 = 3668    250     14.7
hurricane    14       100*70 = 7000    125     56
whirlwind    14       90*150 = 13500   175     77.1
Given that a hurricane AA site is almost always available by the time the enemy has VTOLs, why would anyone ever build sunburst AA sites? They have worse range as well.

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alfred007
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Re: Sunburst AA site balance

Post by alfred007 » 28 Feb 2019, 22:52

The damage per minute you calculated doesn't give you the damage enemy units are really taken in the game. You always have to include the enemy armor into your calculation. I gave an example in this post that the same damage per minute of different weapons can result in different damages the enemy units are taken.

At the moment Berserk Cyborg, Bethrezen and I are trying to improve the current campaign balance. Deviating from the official formula for damage we also include the accuracy of every weapon into our calculations with the following formula:

(Damage Per Shot x Propulsion/Structure Modifier - Target Armor) x Rate of Fire x Accuracy

To make one thing clear: This formula is not telling the complete truth in the game but it gives us a hint what values are worth to test them in the game and what values would be waste of time testing them.

For your comparison of these three weapons, you should use our formula. Farther, the beta guide is not up to date. If you want to have the current values you should have a look into the MP stats. The current values of the sunburst are making the situation even worse because the damage of the sunburst is now set to 75, his accuracy is lower than the accuracy of hurricane or whirlwind (40/73), and the rate of fire is now 25 shots per minute. At long last, I agree with you that using the sunburst makes no sense.

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Berg
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Re: Sunburst AA site balance

Post by Berg » 01 Mar 2019, 02:08

As always balance is a difficult thing and by changing small stats you can have a major effect on balance.
As for the sunbursts in vtol i have seen them take out 20 for 20 on a incoming raid seems a bit scarey.
I like to see an up to date guide in the forum.

crab_
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Re: Sunburst AA site balance

Post by crab_ » 02 Mar 2019, 21:59

alfred007 wrote:
28 Feb 2019, 22:52
Farther, the beta guide is not up to date. If you want to have the current values you should have a look into the MP stats
I'm author of betaguide. Github link to my guide project - https://github.com/crab312/warzone2100-database
I remember in last version It uses json files
To update guide need two things:
1) Test last version of Guide and check for possibly bugs
2) Update data files (.json)
3) Ask admins to update guide

btw, what changed in stats sinсe 3.1.5 ? I thought the json mp values were not changed
Warzone2100 Guide - http://betaguide.wz2100.net/

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NoQ
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Re: Sunburst AA site balance

Post by NoQ » 02 Mar 2019, 22:28

Sunbursts benefit from rocket upgrades, while hurricane have their own independent line of upgrades (that are additionally coupled with machinegun ROF). It makes sunbursts much faster to obtain in certain situations, which is extra cool due to how vtols are often appearing SUDDENLY. If you already have a few rocket upgrades researched by the time you pick Sunburst, it's already twice as powerful just because of upgrades. It also saves money and lab space on later upgrades.The same applies to flak cannon that benefits from cannon upgrades.

Also note the double splash radius. Each rocket will hit more enemies at a time, and better armor penetration (remember that you have much higher raw damage due to better upgrades) would have more effect on splash damage than on direct damage (due to splash damage being weaker).

If you expect VTOLs to be a big problem in the current game, hurricanes/whirlwinds are must-have - being the most efficient AA, but requiring much more dedication. If you need to make sure you have at least *some* counter to VTOLs, get some sunbursts and, ideally, air-to-air sunburst patrols since those can't be bombed down; sunburst rockets rock (no pun intended) as an air-to-air weapon.

ThinkSome
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Re: Sunburst AA site balance

Post by ThinkSome » 03 Mar 2019, 14:49

alfred007 wrote:
28 Feb 2019, 22:52
You always have to include the enemy armor into your calculation.
With armor against leopard VTOL (seemed to appear quite often), assuming all upgrades for everything:

Code: Select all

type of AA   range    damage/min       cost    damage/min/cost
flak cannon  12        5580.96         250     22.3
sunburst     12        6316.8          250     25.3
hurricane    14        24000           125     192
whirlwind    14        51000           175     291

lancerborg   7.5       2529.6          125     20.2
HPVborg      9         1755            150     11.7
You can see that hurricane/WW are totaly OP. For fun I also included some AA weapons that you usually wouldn't build against VTOLs, you can see that the rocket techer is probably better off building lancer cyborgs and spreading them around, they can also be used for base defence in a tankrush. The cannon player is sadly out of luck.

Can someone explain why weapons marked with "ANTI AIRCRAFT" only do 40% damage against VTOL (lift?), while "ANTI TANK" does 80%? And why can't they even attack aircraft when mounted on ground units?

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Guardsman Brendo
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Re: Sunburst AA site balance

Post by Guardsman Brendo » 22 May 2019, 00:43

I do find that Sunburst sites are very helpful, especially when dealing with VTOLs that appear out of nowhere. Although they do not put out much damage per minute, a VERY significant amount of that time is spent reloading. The damage dealt in one barrage is much higher than the output of Hurricane during the same time interval. Sunburst sites are best put in places where range is an issue. Although Hurricane may put out more damage per minute, the enemy VTOLS still mostly make it to their destination alive, able to drop a payload. With Sunburst, the enemy aircraft are generally shot down in the hail of rockets, and, at least when dealing with the AI, the reloading time is spent when another wave is being prepared.
--As of the above time, this was the last transmission received.

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Iluvalar
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Re: Sunburst AA site balance

Post by Iluvalar » 22 May 2019, 01:41

NoQ wrote:
02 Mar 2019, 22:28
The same applies to flak cannon that benefits from cannon upgrades.
I doubt that. AA weapons have their own research line. Unless you meant it's less expensive to research when you already have cannons.
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Berg
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Re: Sunburst AA site balance

Post by Berg » 22 May 2019, 04:32

Iluvalar wrote:
22 May 2019, 01:41
I doubt that. AA weapons have their own research line. Unless you meant it's less expensive to research when you already have cannons.
AA research is MG, rocket, cannon and laser
so there is four paths to take

As for the sunburst they are evil defence when put on vtol

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