Rough Naval Unit

[Carme Taika]

This thread was split from: why aren't the models or textures being used?

<snipped>
'Mechs are just another Land unit;
The Sea is completely devoid of droids/units;
It should be a more pressing matter; don't you agree?

Not *completely devoid*, hovers and VTOLs can move over water. I personally think that it's very hard to fit the current Body>Prop>Turret design system with naval units, they look weird (seen the testing versions myself already, and they fail to look good). IMO - as a quick comment, I'm not seeking to start talking about that yet -, those should be designed separately to look good, or have "dedicated bodies" such as the ones I could imagine for special air units.

Currently no warzone VTOL can look like a fighter, I think, because of turrets and the bodies, as they're just the same ones used for normal tanks - no way for them to look great this way. Naval units aren't too far, but the turrets really aren't a problem.

But I agree that naval units have a real niche - would open many possibilities of map designs, which would be endless worth of entertainment with the new map editors (flaME and Atlas), which already provided us with many interesting maps, as can be seen on http://guide.wz2100.net/addons/. Given those horizons for expansion of game experience, making acceptable-looking naval units is prior to making mechs, in my imaginary "to-do list".

I'm delighted with your appreciation, looking forward to improving those models - effectively revolutioning the art revolution itself - really soon. I've already got to more time-consuming matters using my vacations, but I'm getting back to college tomorrow, so I'll get back to my daily editions of models, which take less time (as they're separated into quick steps rather than a whole bunch of work at a time, like building mods still is, at least for a beginner like me).

Thanks one more time,
~Olrox

Okay, so Olrox said that the current Chassis series all look bad on Naval propulsion;
Thus the lack of use for Naval-class Droids. (Not to mention they don't work [player-built] from a factory.)

I have here something I pulled together after an hour or so of fiddling around in Blender;
Machinegun Viper Naval. ... Comments, anyone?



If you want a better look at my model; download the Mesh; Attached below:

[The extension blend has been deactivated and can no longer be displayed.]

[MaNGusT]

what is the point of using a naval propulsion when we have a hover ? :-S

[Carme Taika]

Because Naval propulsion would be dedicated to water, but then it would move faster than hover in water when a big chassis/turret is placed on it. (Or maybe it would just have thicker armor?)
(Hovers are fast, sacrificing some defense, remember.)

Also Naval propulsion would look cool used on Multi-Turret Chassis' that could be implemented;
when you put say, a pair of Twin Howitzers or something silly like that on a multi-turret Chassis;
A Naval propulsion would look like a warship.

And it would seem more natural than Hovercraft in a Naval battle too.

[MaNGusT]

Because Naval propulsion would be dedicated to water, but then it would move faster than hover in water when a big chassis/turret is placed on it. (Or maybe it would just have thicker armor?)
(Hovers are fast, sacrificing some defense, remember.)

Also Naval propulsion would look cool used on Multi-Turret Chassis' that could be implemented;
when you put say, a pair of Twin Howitzers or something silly like that on a multi-turret Chassis;
A Naval propulsion would look like a warship.

And it would seem more natural than Hovercraft in a Naval battle too.

We don't have enough big maps for a sea battles and naval units will look illogical in 2100 year. Maybe mobile submarines will be useful... stealth, fast or with ability to build an underwater oil derricks... don't know...

Wazone has 3 ground propulsions+cyborgs and only 1 hover and 1 vtol.

[Carme Taika]

Diverting for a second, I think it's funny you haven't commented on how the Viper Chassis I made is so very closely imitating your own, though I made it from scratch just looking at yours; ('Course it doesn't have the texture, but I'm referring to the mesh.)

Also; Naval units not making sense in Year 2100?

Well...
What about these games then? They have Naval units, and are "Post Apocalyptic/Futuristic" themed...




in all likelihood there's more out there, I'm not going to search more out right now, though...

[MaNGusT]

well, it isn't the warzone 2100, it's just other games with its own "universe". IMHO, naval propulsion doesn't fit the warzone.

[Carme Taika]

"Project" would include the revival of naval technology, would it not?

[Rman Virgil]

.

A discussion that first began 10 years ago and has proceeded every year since like clock-work.

Is there anything new to add that hasn't been stated scores of times already ? Perhaps.

Between "Canoe Naval" and WW2 Naval is Littoral Naval (first brought up here in 2007).

Littoral Naval fits best the 22nd century Post Nuke holocaust WZ world for the same principals of engagement reasons they are being built for the 21st Century Naval:

Situational Awareness, Velocity, Modularity & Economy

Resource scarcity is a huge factor never brought up in WW2 style naval proposals (or any WW2 Black Box notions) but very much applicable to the WZ Hard Sci Fi prognosticated world scenario.

A forum search will bring up all the tech issues involved beyond making new naval models (units as well production facilities... then there are the tech tree, research, & stats creation and balance changes associated with the new models on top of those other tech issues a forum search will make clear rather than my re-posting here.)

Not the least consideration in all this is making possible 512 x 512 maps.... and all that invokes.

Here's a small sampling of Littoral Naval Combat vessels already being built.
.

[Corporal Punishment]

Erm, Rman, the Sea Shadow you show in your last picture is neither littoral nor a combat vessel. It was a research vessel to test naval stealth design. The Sea Shadow was originally hauled to high sea in the well-deck of a carrier ship. Only after the Sea Shadow project was reclassified from black to gray did she operate in visual range of the coast. But in any case, the Swath design is an interesting idea to adopt.

[Rman Virgil]

Erm, Rman, the Sea Shadow you show in your last picture is neither littoral nor a combat vessel. It was a research vessel to test naval stealth design. The Sea Shadow was originally hauled to high sea in the well-deck of a carrier ship. Only after the Sea Shadow project was reclassified from black to gray did she operate in visual range of the coast. But in any case, the Swath design is an interesting idea to adopt.

Yup. The experimental Lockheed Stealth Shadow goes back to 1985 and precedes Littoral Naval rollouts. That is a fact.

However, I was thinking very specifically that such a vessel would fit nicely in an overall Littoral Navy for initial recon purposes and even a component of C4 Command and Control offensive planning and deployment. I also like the design (as you seem to as well) and it can be readily weaponized.

Sweden has proven the soundness of this last bit of reasoning from my Jan 2007 posting (you can find it with a forum search - pics included)..

In 2009 Sweden unveiled operational stealth warships that also follow the Littoral model:

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/02/sweden-build-wo/

Nice inspirational pic with the article too. xD

Here are some more strictly Littoral ship pics:

- Regards, RV
.

[lav_coyote25]

ya know... this is one topic that will never die. so ... it would take a few mins to produce a huge 250 by 250 littoral zone map with both a bit o land and a bit of the ol salty H2o... pop in some fijords or some delta river mouths... would be good i think... and as stated prior could have the ship as a mobile pad for SMALL vtol = bug or viper nothing larger.... xD

[Rman Virgil]

.

Yea, that's feasible and could make for some fresh fun in WZ I don't doubt.

And I did very much enjoy naval in TA. However, late game naval battles in TA were a huge cluster frack for 2 principal reasons: the maps were too small and the naval units were modeled on WW2 behemoths like the Bismark. (The PF was nothing to write home about either, as I recall.)

Regards, RV
.

[Carme Taika]

I'm not sure here, but why all this discussion of purely littoral Naval craft?
What about maps with no land connections between masses?

A "true" naval craft, dedicated to water movement, unlike the hovercraft, would be thicker skinned;
thus being a superior deterrent to enemy forces crossing a body of water to attack you.

Maybe they could be similar to VTOLs in that they use different guns?
Like an array of higher damage longer ranged versions of the guns, so that they can bombard a shoreline*, or defend a perimeter...?

*Until say, for example, you sneak a truck onto their land and put up a factory, fortress emplacement, repair facility; etc...?

[Corporal Punishment]

I'm not sure here, but why all this discussion of purely littoral Naval craft?
What about maps with no land connections between masses?

A "true" naval craft, dedicated to water movement, unlike the hovercraft, would be thicker skinned;
thus being a superior deterrent to enemy forces crossing a body of water to attack you.

Maybe they could be similar to VTOLs in that they use different guns?
Like an array of higher damage longer ranged versions of the guns, so that they can bombard a shoreline*, or defend a perimeter...?

*Until say, for example, you sneak a truck onto their land and put up a factory, fortress emplacement, repair facility; etc...?

The discussion is about littoral craft for the simple reason that WZ does not allow for maps large enough to introduce behemoths of the WW2 type. Like, imagine the Bismarck put onto a 256 by 256 tile map. Which convoy is she supposed to hunt? Now imagine the Prinz Eugen, HMS Hood and HMS Prince of Wales on the same map. You as the player will not have the space necessary to outmaneuver the enemy like Admirals Holland and Lütjens did on each other. These ships would be reduced to floating artillery platforms pounding each other. How exiting is that? Plus modern "littoral combat vessels" fit better into the game for their increased tactical abilities over traditional naval design. In real life, these ships are not considered littoral for not being high-sea-worthy. It's more of the other way round: These are fully seaworthy units that can operate closer to the shoreline than traditional ships while better avoiding detection by land-based radar.

[Carme Taika]

What makes you think saying "Naval unit" without the Littoral part attached to it;
Thus it's likely it's more or less a hovercraft that is not committed to the sea;

Means WW2 style Behemoths?

I mean small ships; little patrol boats, made out of the three-piece that the Droids/Tanks are at present.
The very Largest of ships would only be as big as a 1.25 scaled Dragon chassis (IF EVEN THAT MUCH); perhaps some sort of lvl4 advancement to the current line "Wyvern" (lvl2) and "Dragon" (lvl3) chassis'