Structure Improvement

Improving the artwork in Warzone2100 - not for mod discussions
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MaNGusT
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by MaNGusT »

Colditz wrote:All RED meshes are the high polygon meshes which I use for normal mapping. Those are NO ingame meshes. All ingame base plates consists of 2 triangles, every ingame structure has not more than 512 triangles.
Oh, this is cool. Now I understand how to create normal mapping, thank you. :)
Colditz wrote:My ingame meshes have smoothing groups indeed, otherwise normal mapping is not possible with smooth results. If those things, including normal mapping and specular mapping are not supported, we can forget everything I've done so far, except some better meshes with new diffuse textures.
This is sad. It was something that I always tried to tell to developers. To make the warzone looks much better without a hard artist work, we need the support of:
  • mesh smoothing groups
    normal(bump) mapping
    specular mapping
    correct event-based texture animation
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Olrox
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Olrox »

Colditz wrote:If those things, including normal mapping and specular mapping are not supported, we can forget everything I've done so far, except some better meshes with new diffuse textures.
No, we can not forget everything you've done so far, because a series of motives:
  • It is way too good to be ignored ;)
    I've tried to apply the normal mapping (I call it bump mapping, but wanyway) directly into the meshes to see how it looks, and it does look excellent already. Even only with simple textures, those would look terrific, and I bet my left eye on it.
    Every single effort to produce quality content such as this is noble, even if the results aren't those expected in the beginning.
At least this is the way I see things!
Even if Colditz' models aren't used in-game, they surely are more than adequate to make exceptional renders, perhaps even videos for a possible campaign mod, for example!

Anyway, considering the poly counts and quality of the work even without fancy shaders and sub-materials, I believe that it'll suit the game.
Again, I'll make those textures for the cyborg factory.

Colditz, I think you really should license your work, or ask someone (like Zarel :cool: ) to help you with the procedure, and send Per, or someone from the staff, a mesh file, so that they can test if at least the geometry will look good in-game.
That is crucial because it may change the course of our work (if further poly reduction is necessary).

"Hard artist work" heightens my spirit and makes me feel proud to rely less on a computer's proccessment capabilities for my art to look good ;)

The only things I really miss are the bump-mapping and event-triggered animation, I think that those would really be worth the Precious Resource (time :ninja: )
Per
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Per »

Colditz wrote:My ingame meshes have smoothing groups indeed, otherwise normal mapping is not possible with smooth results. If those things, including normal mapping and specular mapping are not supported, we can forget everything I've done so far, except some better meshes with new diffuse textures.
You use smoothing groups to generate normal and specular maps, right? As far as I understand, these are not usually exported for use directly in game engines.

Normal mapping, specular mapping, bump mapping, and materials... none of these are currently supported. It is still a rather primitive engine. However, if you add them to the new models, we will add code to support it.
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Colditz
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Colditz »

The ingame meshes have smoothing groups because you get ugly seams visible in the normal map. If you not smooth them, or at least the important parts, the seams (triangles) of the low poly mesh are visible. This happens mostly with cylinders. And no, I don't use smoothing groups to generate specular maps...

At least new models can be imported, that's nice so far. Normal / Specular would be a nice feature in the future everyone is waiting for, because that's the chance to change WZ2100 graphics at least to state of the art used in 2006.
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Per
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Per »

Colditz wrote:The ingame meshes have smoothing groups because you get ugly seams visible in the normal map. If you not smooth them, or at least the important parts, the seams (triangles) of the low poly mesh are visible. This happens mostly with cylinders.
So how would one deal with that, tessellate the mesh dynamically? I guess we could use geometry shaders on high-end hardware to achieve this, but I am not sure what else one could do. In any case, are you sure that you could see the difference at the kinds of zoom level people play this game at?
Colditz wrote:At least new models can be imported, that's nice so far. Normal / Specular would be a nice feature in the future everyone is waiting for, because that's the chance to change WZ2100 graphics at least to state of the art used in 2006.
Hey, that would still be a 7 year advancement over 1999!
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Colditz
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Colditz »

Per wrote:
Colditz wrote:The ingame meshes have smoothing groups because you get ugly seams visible in the normal map. If you not smooth them, or at least the important parts, the seams (triangles) of the low poly mesh are visible. This happens mostly with cylinders.
So how would one deal with that, tessellate the mesh dynamically? I guess we could use geometry shaders on high-end hardware to achieve this, but I am not sure what else one could do. In any case, are you sure that you could see the difference at the kinds of zoom level people play this game at?
Why Tessellation? We are not using Displacement Maps here. Or Smoothing groups are not linked to mesh geometry, they are a lighting trick to blend poly surfaces together and is stored in the file format if supported. The mesh geometry remains the same. I think we just talk past each other.

What we want to use in the game engine is:
- a Low Poly Mesh with less than 512 triangles for each base buildung
¬ a Diffuse Map / a Specular Map / a Normal Map

@All Developers

Which file format is needed to export one mesh to test it in the game? I've only 3ds max 2010.
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Per
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Per »

Colditz wrote:Why Tessellation? We are not using Displacement Maps here. Or Smoothing groups are not linked to mesh geometry, they are a lighting trick to blend poly surfaces together and is stored in the file format if supported. The mesh geometry remains the same. I think we just talk past each other.

What we want to use in the game engine is:
- a Low Poly Mesh with less than 512 triangles for each base buildung
¬ a Diffuse Map / a Specular Map / a Normal Map
Ok. I think I see now.
Colditz wrote:Which file format is needed to export one mesh to test it in the game? I've only 3ds max 2010.
The 3DS file format should work fine. We have a tool to convert that to the internal model format.
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Colditz »

Then you can try these both, Low Poly Cyborg Factory and Low Poly Command Relay Center.
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Per
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Per »

Colditz wrote:Then you can try these both, Low Poly Cyborg Factory and Low Poly Command Relay Center.
Well, first the good news - I got them converted and the usual problem with the scale being completely off did not appear! The not so good, the texturing was off, not sure why. Also, the command relay center was for some reason translated into a totally wrong position (way too high x values!). See screenshots below:
Floating command relay center. Could make for a nice Avatar mod, though.
Floating command relay center. Could make for a nice Avatar mod, though.
Strange looking cyborg factory
Strange looking cyborg factory
cyborgfac.png (179.44 KiB) Viewed 26915 times
Any ideas what could be wrong? :-S
Per
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Per »

If you want to try to convert them yourself, you could try using the 3ds2pie conversion program at http://download.gna.org/warzone/develop ... ie-5209.7z It is the same program I am using, just with a graphical frontend :)
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MaNGusT
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by MaNGusT »

Per wrote:If you want to try to convert them yourself, you could try using the 3ds2pie conversion program at http://download.gna.org/warzone/develop ... ie-5209.7z It is the same program I am using, just with a graphical frontend :)
It's terrible program for converting to the pie format. Blender script much better but has the bug with teamcolors export(strange coordinates) or I don't understand something. :-S
Per wrote:The not so good, the texturing was off, not sure why.
It's because he changed the texture coordinates and didn't upload the new texture.

"NOTEXTURE 0 NOTEXTURE 256 256" code is broken. It doesn't want to load the game.

But special for you,Per,I've fixed the position coordinates and scale by using blender and 3DSMax.
blcfact1.pie
(20.81 KiB) Downloaded 483 times
bldrdcm0.pie
I've broken the texture coordinates because there was a bug when I want to import the model into blender. but anyway this model doesn't have the UVW Unwrap.
(24.04 KiB) Downloaded 406 times
and now I want to................... sleep. :zZz:
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Berg
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Berg »

Is there a texture page for download/file.php?id=5435 ??
blcfact1.pie?
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Olrox
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Olrox »

I dunno if Mangust adjusted the borg factory's UV map to fit the standard textures, but once again: I'm doing this texture, right away. I'll send it to Colditz via e-mail so he can publish it whenever we feels ok to.

A question I've found to be asking myself today, what about teamcolors? I think it would be adequate to make a poll, "Would you like teamcolors to be added to all the base buildings?" :rolleyes:
Can someone do that? I think that it's worthy to know what the players think. If the devs don't have something essentially against it, that is.

Anyway, adding teamcolors with masks wouldn't require many changes to the UV map or texture itself, so I'll really start right now!
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Zarel
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Zarel »

Olrox wrote:A question I've found to be asking myself today, what about teamcolors? I think it would be adequate to make a poll, "Would you like teamcolors to be added to all the base buildings?" :rolleyes:
Can someone do that? I think that it's worthy to know what the players think. If the devs don't have something essentially against it, that is.
No need, we've already decided long ago that we should have teamcolors in new buildings. Hrm... should probably have mentioned that earlier. ;)
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Olrox
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Re: Structure Improvement

Post by Olrox »

Zarel wrote:No need, we've already decided long ago that we should have teamcolors in new buildings. Hrm... should probably have mentioned that earlier. ;)
Ah, no problem! Probably I've forgot that you had already :P
In this case, we must see if Colditz know how to make teamcolors that way, probably we'll need some help with this procedure later on, if none of us is able to get good enough results.
Here's a link for the ticket, for Colditz. It is worthy to take a look at, as it explains how to make this kind of teamcolor to work: http://developer.wz2100.net/ticket/851
But take your time, you must be learning a lot in this few days! I'll incorporate this procedure in my personal "habilities exam" anyway ;)

About something different, that it's also interesting to think about, before going on:
Event-driven animations for wzm format. I know that it is already planned, but I must know if it's worth thinking about that right now, or if it'll take too much time that it's not worth to prepare the models for it right now.
Last edited by Olrox on 05 Feb 2010, 15:20, edited 3 times in total.
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