Terrain Textures

[DuKe2112]

So its probably that the texture page covers 5.8x5.8 cliff tiles?
And additionally "cliff" is not the sides of the hills anymore, but the adjoining area as well, so its not really cliff but rather just rock.

@MaNGusT what has normal maps to do with models? a NM is just another texture after all. and a model is just a file that packs verts and polys. A Renderer only cares about verts and tries and mapped textures, shouldn't matter where it gets them.

[Olrox]

Yeah, many games use effect maps in addition to the diffuse maps for terrain as well - bump maps and specular maps are very common.

After all, the terrain of a game map is a mesh, therefore it is somewhat a "model".

~Olrox

[MaNGusT]

@MaNGusT what has normal maps to do with models? a NM is just another texture after all. and a model is just a file that packs verts and polys. A Renderer only cares about verts and tries and mapped textures, shouldn't matter where it gets them.

After all, the terrain of a game map is a mesh, therefore it is somewhat a "model".

You don't understand what you are talking about.
ok, question from another side - How are you going to create a normal map texture for a terrain?

[Olrox]

You don't understand what you are talking about.
ok, question from another side - How are you going to create a normal map texture for a terrain?

You sure?
They could be created in the same way as we create normal maps for regular textures. We make the relief in 3d, render a normal map, and apply that in the tile (which is 2 triagles actually) along with the diffuse texture. The current way regular textures are applicated is very similar, it takes the 2d texture and stretches it to fit a 3d mesh, which is the surface of the map, composed of triangles... there's no reason why this couldn't work, really. If the devs are going to support normal maps, then it would be available for every texture file, wouldn't it? It wouldn't make sense otherwise, restricting the potential of a new feature they're gonna implement.

~Olrox

[MaNGusT]

They could be created in the same way as we create normal maps for regular textures. We make the relief in 3d, render a normal map, and apply that in the tile (which is 2 triagles actually) along with the diffuse texture.

Yes! and when you render to texture a normal map you must choose a size of a texture. what size will you choose?

[Olrox]

They could be created in the same way as we create normal maps for regular textures. We make the relief in 3d, render a normal map, and apply that in the tile (which is 2 triagles actually) along with the diffuse texture.

Yes! and when you render to texture a normal map you must choose a size of a texture. what size will you choose?

The same size of the diffuse map, of course.

[MaNGusT]

The same size of the diffuse map, of course.

But map doesn't have the 1 diffuse texture, it has big tiles - 7 for Arizona. The engine searches a repeated old tiles and then replaces them by a new "big" one.

also, we use a 512x512 texture for a body model(it is <1 tile in game), for example. what texture size will you choose for a huge maps? (256x256 tiles).

[Olrox]

The same size of the diffuse map, of course.

But map doesn't have the 1 diffuse texture, it has big tiles - 7 for Arizona. The engine searches a repeated old tiles and then replaces them by a new "big" one.

also, we use a 512x512 texture for a body model(it is <1 tile in game), for example. what texture size will you choose for a huge maps? (256x256 tiles).

Ground textures are repeated, and we also don't quite need the 512X512 textures for the body models. Actually we could do with half a 256x256 one for bodies.

I think that 128x128 for each tile is enough, then just multipy that by the number of tiles you want included in that "big tile". I still can't see why the normal map couldn't be applied exactly like the diffuse map.

~Olrox

[MaNGusT]

I think that 128x128 for each tile is enough, then just multipy that by the number of tiles you want included in that "big tile".

Now you've answered on your question by self.
128 pixels * 256 map tiles = 32768 x 32768 pixels texture for a normal map. (remember! a whole map is a 1 indivisible model, we can't divide it by some smaller parts ).

[Olrox]

Now you've answered on your question by self.
128 pixels * 256 map tiles = 32768 x 32768 pixels texture for a normal map. (remember! a whole map is a 1 indivisible model, we can't divide it by some smaller parts ).

You're telling me that the map isn't divided between tiles or triangles? And that the current diffuse maps are stretched to fit the whole map? I guess not. It's obvious that we won't have a single texture and stretch it across the whole map. But why can't we have the normal map to be repeated like the diffuse map?

You just seem to mock me, but you didn't answer that yet.

~Olrox

[MaNGusT]

But why can't we have the normal map to be repeated like the diffuse map?

Hmm... I don't know how to answer.
Normal map can only be created from a whole 3d model, but repeated tiles aren't a whole model - they are just the triangles that compose the model(whole map).

You just seem to mock me, but you didn't answer that yet.

I don't mock you, I'm trying to explain.

I don't know what to say more. Maybe others can explain to you better than me.

EDIT:
I think you are confused. normal map doesn't equal bump map.

[Rider]

Mangust, are you sure you're both talking about the same thing?

[MaNGusT]

Mangust, are you sure you're both talking about the same thing?

look at my "edit" above.

[Olrox]

But why can't we have the normal map to be repeated like the diffuse map?

Hmm... I don't know how to answer.
Normal map can only be created from a whole 3d model, but repeated tiles aren't a whole model - they are just the triangles that compose the model(whole map).

You just seem to mock me, but you didn't answer that yet.

I don't mock you, I'm trying to explain.

I don't know what to say more. Maybe others can explain to you better than me.

EDIT:
I think you are confused. normal map doesn't equal bump map.

I know bump maps are different from normal maps. The fact is, it doesn't matter how we create a normal map, it can be applied to ay geometry just like the diffuse map. In this case we don't even have to make 3d models of the surface, we can use filters:

Took me 15 seconds to generate this normal map with a simple plugin for photoshop. That's because my PC is from more than 7 years ago, otherwise it'd took the time of selecting the options.

I know there's no grid on the textures, it's to represent what I mean:
If the texture's going to be applied over 7x7 tiles, then the normal map can be also applied to the exact same 7x7 tiles, in the same position. Normal maps from a kind of terrain could be blended to other terrain types' normal maps just the same way as diffuse maps currently are.

Or at least I think so.

~Olrox

[MaNGusT]

This means that when we will apply a normal map, we will have the same result if we will apply bump map. This way we lost the Idea of normals mapping and I don't see a reason why not to include a fake relief to a diffuse texture - We will have the same result. or render terrain by using bump mapping.

The Idea of the normals mapping is to display a hi-poly version of a model over low-poly model by creating a normal map texture from a hi-poly model. Creating a normal map from a diffuse texture gives us a bump map texture but for the normals mapping technique.

I think that this discussion should be moved to the separate topic.