Blah blah blah NTW mod is unbalanced! This idea is meant for greater capability of scavengers, and possibly making them their own faction.
hmm well well...
scavengers can be useful in the first mins of a game, they rock on low oil maps.
then when you dont get much power.
production is also faster than cyborgs, but note that they cant fire during movement.
-- Delphinio
Last edited by Delphinio on 21 Aug 2010, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.
OK, I used the give all cheat for the first time a few days ago, couldn't build scav units, but could build scav defenses, game crashed when I built scav factory (already had max factory types.
What would be cool to have: a 4th factory class, and all scav units would be built from that class. Scav units have their own propulsion type I think (BaBa wheels and BaBa Legs or something like that) so it shouldn't be hard to restrict scav units to a certain factory type (since factory types already restrict buildable units based on propulsion type)
Now as for balance, scavs should be completely ineffective once one's research is at T-2 level.
Obviously, they would be cheap and produce fast- good for low oil maps, useless lag creating things on high oil, except maybe in the very start just for stopping truck rushes or stopping enemy trucks from setting up a defensive line too close to your base.
Various things get removed from the build menu when new tech is out.
Scav MG towers= gone when the normal MG tower is researched.
Scav cannon tower= gone when cannon bunker/light cannon tower researched.
and so on for other scav defenses.
Perhaps scav factories remain, or are no longer buildable by the time cyborg factories come out.
However, I have 1 major "failsafe" suggestion:
Right now we have 3 start settings, which affect what technology one starts with:
No bases (no tech), bases (a few basic tech), advanced bases (many techs)
I propose we give the scav buildings and units unresearchable technology pre-requisites, and add a fourth start option that grants those otherwise unobtainable Scav techs at the beginning.
Ideally it would also be able to tell the difference between scav buildings and other buildings, so that if the map maker gave any scav buildings to the player, those remain, so the map could start with fairly advanced "scavenger" bases.
Otherwise, its just two trucks that can build scav stuff.
The failsafe is that if the usable scavengers turn out to be overpowered (since they are cheap) in early T-1 games, or just stupid and wreck the game, players simply don't host games with the start condition set to "Scavenger technology"
Also, player built scav defenses will look quite ugly without the player being allowed to rotate a structure prior to building, particularly the scav walls and towers with associated walls.
Other things that would be needed for scavs to be "polished" for gameplay:
Automatic structure replacement: like when a section of a hardcrete wall transformes into a corner wall when another wall section is built perpendicular to it, scavenger "end towers" should transform into corner towers.
Automatic structure rotation: again like with hardcrete walls: when you have only 1 hardcrete wall section, and another is built next to it, they will both rotate to the correct orientation to form a contiguous wall.
Scavenger end and corner towers should rotate as such, without the player having to carefully plan out and rotate each structure to begin with, or end up with ugly looking defenses.
New defensive models: We have end towers, and corner towers, but no "mid wall tower" ie a tower with wall segments on each side. Nor do we have towers that can visually meet up with three or 4 walls at a time.
Nor do we have any scav cannon towers that have associated wall segments, or Scav MG towers with no associated wall segments.
Currently the only way to tell a scav cannon tower from a mg tower, is if it has a wall section at its base.
And a wall section attacked to a MG tower that a player has placed all by itself, is stupid. Something would need to be visually done to distinguish the two if players are allowed to build such defenses freely, or you'll have stupid looking defenses.
So it would take a good amount of work to make playable scavengers as much of a "finished product" as the normal WZ units are. So the question is, would the resulting gameplay be worth it?
I agree, this is a great idea and something that has been on my mind as well. I think scavs should be able to rebuild after being assaulted or even better yet, you should be able to bribe them into being your ally
Hmm theres an idea, put scavs on the player list, and always allow the player to be able to "offer an alliance" to them.
The scavengers will break it unless they regularly get power transfers over a certain sum?
Thus on maps where scavs are significant factors (often intended as an anti rush buffer), you can simply "buy safe passage" on your way to rush the other guy.
Or, some maps could be made, where you ally and transfer tech to the Scavs, to make them more threatening to your enemies.
Scavs suck, but will they suck when they are all firing DU mg bullets, with the hyper fire mg upgrade? (increasing their DPS over 10x
When they have all the armor upgrades: ie superdense composite alloys mk3 giving them 3.7 x the hitpoints and armor?
When their defenses have 4.6 x the hitpoints and 5.1x the armor?
Imagine playing a game where scavs have *all* the technology alreayd researched, and everyone else starts with 2 trucks and no tech.
It would take quite a while to be able to take on the scavengers
Heh. Fast-tech builds would be mighty on such a map. Just take all the power you can nearby, and then tech all the way to lassat.
"There is no greater Void than the one between your ears." - Void Ray, StarCraft 2.
Especially the Void between the ears of people who think that No VTOL is a good idea, and won't lead to arty wars. I've won one, and I have to say: I hated it.
Fast-tech build= build orders and game styles that are heavy on technology. Originally used in games such as StarCraft, where such builds are risky, but with high rewards.
"There is no greater Void than the one between your ears." - Void Ray, StarCraft 2.
Especially the Void between the ears of people who think that No VTOL is a good idea, and won't lead to arty wars. I've won one, and I have to say: I hated it.
Post above mine. Such maps would encourage fast teching.
"There is no greater Void than the one between your ears." - Void Ray, StarCraft 2.
Especially the Void between the ears of people who think that No VTOL is a good idea, and won't lead to arty wars. I've won one, and I have to say: I hated it.
You mean a map where the Scavengers *Start* with all the upgrades possible?
I was talking about giving the scavs the tech via tech transfer to allies, as a player advances through the tech tree, as part of the proposed system where you can ally with the scavs.
And in that system, the other player could just bribe their way past the elevated tech scavs to attach the "fast techer"
Scavs already encourage "fast teching" to a degree on some maps: like Fishnets for a 1v1 (players on opposite sides).
Their bases are sufficiently strong you can "fast tech" to hover, pgen, and res modules, while without the scavs, doing that would pretty much ensure you lose the center island, and likely half the oil on your side.
Then even if you got hover, the enemy could just advance on your base by land, and deal with your hover units later (this is the exact scenario as it played out in a game I had vs Dylan)
So in summary thgins is good idea BUT it needs to work on it
Scavenders are also good for for low power mass as I have read that
Scavenders are good fopr fast production
Scavenders are useless after T2 reached
Scavenders can be get by cheats
I have watch today last episode of THE COLONY on discovery channel and the type of scavenders, groups of people have attack each other so in last episode they make transport from truck and evaculate it was great. They also got solar power machineguns and falmethrowers so how about to make scavender transporter type of bus, more types of scavenders with factory and about 50 tech for them
franek12354 wrote:So in summary thgins is good idea BUT it needs to work on it
I think you're missing the point. We are giving scavengers increased capability. They will be very, very weak after T2, of course, but that's an inherent thing that should not be changed.
If you are going to integrate scavengers as a player-researchable tech level, it would be either all scavenger tech or no scavenger tech. No SCAV -> T1 -> T2 like NTW.
Warzone nicknames: WarTux[BDC], ChuckNorris-BDC, DeathStar, etc.
Part of the Black Dragon Clan; apply today, we welcome most!
On the Warzone IRC channel you can find me hanging out with the BDC dudes or messing with the bot.
Kacen wrote:The problem with making them their own faction is that besides the novelty they'll be useless.
WarTux wrote:it would be either all scavenger tech or no scavenger tech.
As for multiplayer, I'm talking scavs vs. scavs, like BP's old Scavenger Mod that you can't find anymore since it's not compatible with 2.3.x. Honestly, why does everyone think we mean scavs vs. regular factions?
As for skirmish games, giving engineers to scavengers would make them a pretty interesting early-game enemy (according to Roux Le Corps, they already repair stuff using a mythical scav autorepair ).
Warzone nicknames: WarTux[BDC], ChuckNorris-BDC, DeathStar, etc.
Part of the Black Dragon Clan; apply today, we welcome most!
On the Warzone IRC channel you can find me hanging out with the BDC dudes or messing with the bot.
This idea is meant for greater capability of scavengers, and possibly making them their own faction.
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