Updating Trucks and Combat Engineer Cyborgs

[KenAlcock]

Trucks and Combat Engineers Should Be Able to Demolish Ally and Enemy Structures

Just think about this for a second, if a truck can demolish structures, does it really matter who built the structures in the first place? Look at the real world. At no time in the history of either warfare or engineering has who built a structure been a limitation to who can unbuild it. In fact most times in real life, it is never the same: people, company, or army demolishing a structure as it was that built the structure in the first place.

It's annoying in multiplayer team games when an AI or even a human ally builds a structure in my base area that is in the way of my building plans. Likewise, when I capture an enemy base, my Trucks and Combat Engineer Cyborgs should be able to demo things like walls, power generators, and what not.

Now I would suggest that demo should occur at a slower rate for enemy structures than for friendly ones (after all, you wouldn't have the blueprints of the structure to work from). Also this way, one couldn't just take a bunch of trucks to take out all an enemy's hard points and bunkers before they can shoot back. Or maybe only allow demo to enemy structures that do not shoot back at all.

Demolishing an enemy's structure should recycle a smaller portion of power to the player ordering the demo. (without the blueprints on the structure, less material can be recycled properly). And demolishing an ally's structure should recycle the normal portion of power but it should go back to the ally not to the player ordering the demo (to prevent screwing over your ally).

Trucks and Combat Engineers should be able to repair structures in the same time or less as it takes them to build the @#$%*^& thing in the first place!

To me this is a serious flaw. I was playing multiplayer the other night with some new WZ online friends and we just defended a rush attack. And with a boat load of power and several trucks on a segment of wall, it took more time for three trucks to repair a wall segment than it did for one truck to build a new wall segment. In fact, one truck can demolish a wall segment, and rebuild a new one in its place, faster than three trucks can repair the same sized wall segment.

The AI needs to better prioritize the use of its Trucks and Combat Engineers

One path to beating any Warzone human player or AI is to destroy his: 5 Factories, 5 Cyborg Factories, and 15 Trucks/Combat Engineer Cyborgs first. I mean, do not target anything else with your expeditionary (offensive only) forces. Now usually, but not always, there are those pesky defenses and enemy combat units interposing themselves between you and these vital, strategic targets. Most human players know (and the rest will soon learn if they do not know) that this is one key to your army's continued life in Warzone. Without factories, no more units. And without Trucks and Combat Engineers, no more defensive structures and no more factories.

Unfortunately, the AI does not seem to understand or respect this as much as the human players. I recently played a game where I built a VTOL air force and proceeded to bomb away at the AI's bases. What puzzled me is that when the AI was down to few or no bases and just a couple of trucks, that he opted to build a sensor of all things. A smart human player will always keep 15 trucks and as many factories as power permits to ensure continued survival. The AI should do this as well.

When the AI gets below 15 Trucks/Combat Engineer Cyborgs, it should cancel other manufacturing orders to produce more of these. When it's factories are below however many the AI built, it should prioritize building those structures higher than it currently does.

[KukY]

Trucks and Combat Engineers Should Be Able to Demolish Ally and Enemy Structures

Very good idea.
After all, they are Combat Engineers.
I wonder how hard it is to make...
But I don't think that demolishing ally structures will be able because allies are protected a lot in this game...

Trucks and Combat Engineers should be able to repair structures in the same time or less as it takes them to build the @#$%*^& thing in the first place!

That definetly...

The AI needs to better prioritize the use of its Trucks and Combat Engineers

AI needs to be improved, it should
Improving AI has been mentioned too much.
But someone needs to code that!
That is why making good AI is so hard.

[Bulldozer]

Trucks and Combat Engineers Should Be Able to Demolish Ally and Enemy Structures

No. Trucks can demolish things too quickly; it would bring the game out of balance because all you would need to do is keep your engineers alive long enough to get close to the wall. Just because you can demolish your own building quickly does not mean you should be able to demolish an enemy building the same way... Even in real life, you can wire your own heavily fortified building with TNT and destroy it from the inside out, but and enemy cannot.

Being able to demolish allied structures is also a bad idea; you could tear town your allies defenses in a heartbeat and then break the alliance. Perhaps in fixed team mode this might be useful, but then it might be cause for frustration as well.

[KukY]

Bulldozer, didn't you read?
He said that if demolishing enemy structure, it would take much longer then demolishing your own structure.
About demolishing your allies struture, that will never be in the game, believe me.

[Zarel]

Trucks and Combat Engineers Should Be Able to Demolish Ally and Enemy Structures

Just think about this for a second, if a truck can demolish structures, does it really matter who built the structures in the first place? Look at the real world. At no time in the history of either warfare or engineering has who built a structure been a limitation to who can unbuild it. In fact most times in real life, it is never the same: people, company, or army demolishing a structure as it was that built the structure in the first place.

I dunno what planet you live in, but here on earth, if you tried to demolish your neighbor's house, you'd get stopped and arrested before you got very far. In general, there are usually a lot more people stopping you if you demolish someone else's stuff than if you demolish your own.

There's a reason, in wars, you destroy enemy structures by shooting them (e.g. with artillery), instead of walking up to them and demolishing them.

The same goes for demolishing ally structures. Your ally isn't going to be an ally for long if you start demolishing their buildings without permission - that's pretty much an act of war right there.

It's annoying in multiplayer team games when an AI or even a human ally builds a structure in my base area that is in the way of my building plans. Likewise, when I capture an enemy base, my Trucks and Combat Engineer Cyborgs should be able to demo things like walls, power generators, and what not.

Walls, yes (in fact, what I'll probably end up doing is simply allowing wall takeover). Other stuff, no. Power generators have people in them, you know. People that will stop you if you try to destroy their buildings.

Trucks and Combat Engineers should be able to repair structures in the same time or less as it takes them to build the @#$%*^& thing in the first place!

To me this is a serious flaw. I was playing multiplayer the other night with some new WZ online friends and we just defended a rush attack. And with a boat load of power and several trucks on a segment of wall, it took more time for three trucks to repair a wall segment than it did for one truck to build a new wall segment. In fact, one truck can demolish a wall segment, and rebuild a new one in its place, faster than three trucks can repair the same sized wall segment.

The AI needs to better prioritize the use of its Trucks and Combat Engineers

One path to beating any Warzone human player or AI is to destroy his: 5 Factories, 5 Cyborg Factories, and 15 Trucks/Combat Engineer Cyborgs first. I mean, do not target anything else with your expeditionary (offensive only) forces. Now usually, but not always, there are those pesky defenses and enemy combat units interposing themselves between you and these vital, strategic targets. Most human players know (and the rest will soon learn if they do not know) that this is one key to your army's continued life in Warzone. Without factories, no more units. And without Trucks and Combat Engineers, no more defensive structures and no more factories.

Erm, that's not "one path", that's the only path, and it's like the whole point of the game.

Unfortunately, the AI does not seem to understand or respect this as much as the human players. I recently played a game where I built a VTOL air force and proceeded to bomb away at the AI's bases. What puzzled me is that when the AI was down to few or no bases and just a couple of trucks, that he opted to build a sensor of all things. A smart human player will always keep 15 trucks and as many factories as power permits to ensure continued survival. The AI should do this as well.

When the AI gets below 15 Trucks/Combat Engineer Cyborgs, it should cancel other manufacturing orders to produce more of these. When it's factories are below however many the AI built, it should prioritize building those structures higher than it currently does.

Good idea. Wanna go and implement it?

[KenAlcock]

I dunno what planet you live in, but here on earth, if you tried to demolish your neighbor's house, you'd get stopped and arrested before you got very far. In general, there are usually a lot more people stopping you if you demolish someone else's stuff than if you demolish your own.

There's a reason, in wars, you destroy enemy structures by shooting them (e.g. with artillery), instead of walking up to them and demolishing them.

C'mon, you must know that legality is notwithstanding on battlefield. War knows one and only one law, "might makes right". The rest is all semantics and details. If I'm parked on your conquered territory, and you have no combat units left to defend it with, go ahead and march your little lawyers out there and see if they can physically stop my wrecking ball. I'm already at war with you, I've already helped your military forces meet their maker, so it goes without saying that your laws mean nothing to me. It's my laws that now mean something to you instead. And it has been that way in every war in history. In fact, History=His story And it is always written by the victors.

The same goes for demolishing ally structures. Your ally isn't going to be an ally for long if you start demolishing their buildings without permission - that's pretty much an act of war right there.

And my ally building an unwelcome and unwanted structure in my base area is not considered an act of war? Go back and read my proposal again. At least I said the recycled power should go back to my ally and not to me.

Walls, yes (in fact, what I'll probably end up doing is simply allowing wall takeover). Other stuff, no. Power generators have people in them, you know. People that will stop you if you try to destroy their buildings.

Okay the walls are a start. But if you are rationalizing that there are people in the buildings that would prevent a hostile demolition, okay then why don't those same people shoot back at offensive combat units? Come on now, we can't rationalize things different ways. So let's see here now. There is a man approaching my house driving a wrecking ball crane. Okay, this man I have to stop. But when another man approaches my house with an M1A1 Abrams tank, I'm just going to let him blow me up with no resistance at all?

(In truth, if I saw either of these men come to my house in real life, you would find me in my car hauling @$$ somewhere else with quickness that the Greek God Mercury himself would admire.)

When the AI gets below 15 Trucks/Combat Engineer Cyborgs, it should cancel other manufacturing orders to produce more of these. When it's factories are below however many the AI built, it should prioritize building those structures higher than it currently does.

Good idea. Wanna go and implement it?

If I knew how to code games, I would try to take a stab at it. But I would do you guys more harm than good right now. I'm best used more in analysis, testing, and QA roles. However, I have already supplied some ideas to DylanDog for his AI work though.

[KenAlcock]

Trucks and Combat Engineers Should Be Able to Demolish Ally and Enemy Structures

No. Trucks can demolish things too quickly; it would bring the game out of balance because all you would need to do is keep your engineers alive long enough to get close to the wall.

Did you actually read my suggestion? I suggested that perhaps it should take a lot longer to demo an enemy's structures.

Just because you can demolish your own building quickly does not mean you should be able to demolish an enemy building the same way... Even in real life, you can wire your own heavily fortified building with TNT and destroy it from the inside out, but and enemy cannot.

I believe the construction and demolition in Warzone 2100 is done by beams of nanotechnology. Thus you do not actually need raw materials to build, but only power to drive the build and nanotechnology. The reverse would be equally true for demolition. (Have you seen the remake of "The Day the Earth Stood Still"? think that type of demolition but on a much smaller scale.)

Being able to demolish allied structures is also a bad idea; you could tear town your allies defenses in a heartbeat and then break the alliance. Perhaps in fixed team mode this might be useful, but then it might be cause for frustration as well.

This is a good point. However, how does your good point differ from my ally building Plasmite Flamer Bunkers around all my factories, then breaking his alliance with me? You see there is already an imbalance here. And I'm trying to balance it back. When ally builds his walls in front of my base egress it is already frustrating. But what recourse do I currently have? There really aren't any options. I can could always say pretty please will you demo that structure that's in my way, but there is no guarantee that he will. At least the idea I proposed had me demo the structure and send the power back to my ally, not to me.

[Zarel]

C'mon, you must know that legality is notwithstanding on battlefield. War knows one and only one law, "might makes right". The rest is all semantics and details. If I'm parked on your conquered territory, and you have no combat units left to defend it with, go ahead and march your little lawyers out there and see if they can physically stop my wrecking ball. I'm already at war with you, I've already helped your military forces meet their maker, so it goes without saying that your laws mean nothing to me. It's my laws that now mean something to you instead. And it has been that way in every war in history. In fact, History=His story And it is always written by the victors.

If you're parked in my territory, and you have no combat units to attack me with, go ahead and and march your engineer up, but he's not going to get very far. I mean, it's not like he's a spy or something.

And my ally building an unwelcome and unwanted structure in my base area is not considered an act of war? Go back and read my proposal again. At least I said the recycled power should go back to my ally and not to me.

If merely building the structure were an act of war, then you should just break alliance and destroy the structure. Or, y'know, tell the ally to demolish it. You can't have it both ways.

I agree that AIs shouldn't be building on your oil resources, but that's all.

Okay the walls are a start. But if you are rationalizing that there are people in the buildings that would prevent a hostile demolition, okay then why don't those same people shoot back at offensive combat units? Come on now, we can't rationalize things different ways. So let's see here now. There is a man approaching my house driving a wrecking ball crane. Okay, this man I have to stop. But when another man approaches my house with an M1A1 Abrams tank, I'm just going to let him blow me up with no resistance at all?

If someone approaches my non-combat structure in an Abrams, of course I'd run away. If some scrawny engineer approaches a high-security power generator built in a warzone with a truck and says "Hey, can I take this down?" I'm going to say "No, go away."

Seriously. Warzone trucks and combat engineers aren't exactly highly trained demolition teams.

If I knew how to code games, I would try to take a stab at it. But I would do you guys more harm than good right now. I'm best used more in analysis, testing, and QA roles. However, I have already supplied some ideas to DylanDog for his AI work though.

Ah, well, you're doing fine at those roles, so keep it up.

I believe the construction and demolition in Warzone 2100 is done by beams of nanotechnology. Thus you do not actually need raw materials to build, but only power to drive the build and nanotechnology. The reverse would be equally true for demolition. (Have you seen the remake of "The Day the Earth Stood Still"? think that type of demolition but on a much smaller scale.)

Warzone demolishing is mostly unexplained, but let's just say it's a process that requires the owner of the building to agree to it.

Nanotech is a "last resort" explanation, but the tech level of the Project suggests that they shouldn't have technology as advanced as nanotech. The red beams trucks send out as they demolish a structure, that's just a communications beam to tell the structure to demolish itself (and only works at short range, so the people inside the structure know it's really their own side telling them to demolish it).

[KenAlcock]

If merely building the structure were an act of war, then you should just break alliance and destroy the structure. Or, y'know, tell the ally to demolish it. You can't have it both ways.

I agree that AIs shouldn't be building on your oil resources, but that's all.

In locked teams you get screwed. I have played skirmish with AI team, and the idiot built hard points and bunkers in my base between my factories, and it really mucked up the path finding for new units. And it was locked teams so I couldn't shoot the structures, I couldn't break an alliance. I had to eventually demo my own structures. Now when I play that map (NTW2) with AI teammate, I immediately devote two trucks to building a wall between my base and his all the way from the back of my based area down to the front line of the battle field and hope the enemy takes out his units before they meander into my base area.

Nanotech is a "last resort" explanation, but the tech level of the Project suggests that they shouldn't have technology as advanced as nanotech. The red beams trucks send out as they demolish a structure, that's just a communications beam to tell the structure to demolish itself (and only works at short range, so the people inside the structure know it's really their own side telling them to demolish it).

LMAO, Are you sure you don't want to put a pretty ribbon and bow on that explanation?

[KenAlcock]

Trucks and Combat Engineers Should Be Able to Demolish Ally and Enemy StructuresTrucks and Combat Engineers should be able to repair structures in the same time or less as it takes them to build the @#$%*^& thing in the first place!

To me this is a serious flaw. I was playing multiplayer the other night with some new WZ online friends and we just defended a rush attack. And with a boat load of power and several trucks on a segment of wall, it took more time for three trucks to repair a wall segment than it did for one truck to build a new wall segment. In fact, one truck can demolish a wall segment, and rebuild a new one in its place, faster than three trucks can repair the same sized wall segment.

No one else seems to want to comment on this item?

[Zarel]

In locked teams you get screwed. I have played skirmish with AI team, and the idiot built hard points and bunkers in my base between my factories, and it really mucked up the path finding for new units. And it was locked teams so I couldn't shoot the structures, I couldn't break an alliance. I had to eventually demo my own structures. Now when I play that map (NTW2) with AI teammate, I immediately devote two trucks to building a wall between my base and his all the way from the back of my based area down to the front line of the battle field and hope the enemy takes out his units before they meander into my base area.

...what's the AI doing in your base in the first place? o_O iirc, the AI usually doesn't build defenses outside of its base, unless it's defending its oil.

LMAO, Are you sure you don't want to put a pretty ribbon and bow on that explanation?

Fine. The engineer goes inside the structure and demolishes it.

Trucks and Combat Engineers Should Be Able to Demolish Ally and Enemy Structures

By the way, the balance reasons why I'm blocking this:

For ally structures, the main reason is to limit the extent to which allies can attack each other. It's imperfect - allies can still build attack structures in allied bases and then break alliance, but it's better than having a single truck demolish everything in your base.

At most, I can code an exception for the AI.

For enemy structures, it's simply a balance problem. Trucks should not be able to do damage to enemy structures.

Trucks and Combat Engineers should be able to repair structures in the same time or less as it takes them to build the @#$%*^& thing in the first place!

To me this is a serious flaw. I was playing multiplayer the other night with some new WZ online friends and we just defended a rush attack. And with a boat load of power and several trucks on a segment of wall, it took more time for three trucks to repair a wall segment than it did for one truck to build a new wall segment. In fact, one truck can demolish a wall segment, and rebuild a new one in its place, faster than three trucks can repair the same sized wall segment.

Repair is free, rebuilding is not.

[KenAlcock]

Repair is free, rebuilding is not.

Ahh, I did not know that.

Okay then this spawns a new idea that would undoubtedly mean more work for you guys.

How feasible would it be to allow players to pay for repairs in order to speed up the repair process? And could this be made an option (like hold down CTRL key while you click on a structure to repair it or something like that)? That way a player on a low power map has the option of the slow and cheap repair, or the fast and expensive repair.

Maybe it should cost half of the power required to build the structure in order to repair it; of course, taking into account how much of the structure is actually damaged. The repair time would be just as fast as the build time for the same portion of the structure.

So for example:

To build a new Structure X costs 400 power and it takes one truck 300 seconds (5 minutes) to build it. The player or AI has a Structure X that is currently 60% damaged.

Fast repair could be completed in 180 seconds (60% of 300 seconds) but would cost 120 power (50% of 60% of 400 power).

You might want to tweak the 50% constant in the equation to something else in order to achieve the game balance that you want, but the other terms in the equation should most likely remain the same.

And if you could, use my example above to tell us how long the free repair time would take with one truck (400 power structure that is 60% damaged)?

[Zarel]

The biggest problem is, for structures, build time is based on price, while repair time is based on body points (HP). For most things, these are roughly equal, but for walls, they have a low price but high HP, causing repair time to take proportionally far longer.