Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Ideas and suggestions for how to improve the Warzone 2100 base game only. Ideas for mods go in Mapping/Modding instead. Read sticky posts first!
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Kacen
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Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by Kacen » 09 Sep 2009, 19:08

Now, I'm one of those people who rarely uses cyborgs. The only time I find myself using them is with Combat Engineers and Cyborg Transports in order to set up remote bases easily, or (uncommon) to bring a squad of repair cyborgs to a vehicle formation in the relative safety of a transport (Also, I have to make a comment, is it just me or is there a glitch where SAMs are unable to hit Cyborg Transports?). All these considered, from what I can tell, the only major advantages Cyborgs have are two things:

1. Ability to use Cyborg Transports.

2. Small, compact factories.

Minor advantage would be being unaffected by terrain.

(One could argue that cyborgs have the advantage of not being heavily damaged by anti-tank and all-rounders but they have specific weapons geared towards them (machine guns, lasers, flamers), so that's balanced. Even then they can be overwhelmed by powerful late game Anti-Tank and All-Rounder weapons. I recall my massive cyborg force I used yesterday to help take out an enemy base in skirmish (about 40 strong) got wiped out really fast even though I was faced with little to no AP weapons. My tank squads did most of the work.)

Other than that though, I have little to no incentive using cyborgs in combat. One of my main issues is they take relatively long to build. For instance, with all research upgrades taken into account, a Flashlight Gunner takes a bit longer to build than a Pulse Laser Leopard Wheels, a Super Pulse Laser Gunner noticeably longer.

Before all the upgrades equivalent cyborgs to their vehicle counterparts take way longer to produce. All these taken into account, I have some suggestions for cyborgs:

1. Cyborg factories should have one module upgrade. Cosmetically I think it should simply be a built cyborg factory has only one of the pipes in back, and when upgraded it gets the two it currently has. When upgraded it will be able to construct super cyborgs and build smaller ones faster.

2. Perhaps a cyborg sensor unit of some sort? You could position it on a hill whilst assigning artillery units to it, as well as being able to assign grenadiers, both being transportable.

3. Cyborg commander, possibly? If one wishes to have a commander with cyborgs he can't bring them along in a transport currently.

4. If I recall, 1.12 had a howitzer cyborg. I don't see any harm in that, though I think it should be a super cyborg with the howitzer for balance reasons (it was a bit unrealistic having that little cyborg with the large artillery weapon, even if it was just the basic howitzer.) Also with suggestion 2 taken into account this would be even more useful.

5. This just might be a little nitpick, but when cyborg transports, late game, still have heavy machine guns, it's a tad strange. I read in a thread somewhere that the heavy machine guns on VTOLs/Transports are all-rounder and that was a problem so it's going to be changed to AP.

With that in mind, I suggest at some point in tech 2 once you research the assault gun you get an upgrade for the transport to give it an assault gun in place of the heavy machine gun. And by tech 3, once the flashlight is researched, it will be able to get a flashlight. Dunno if the latter would be overpowered or not.

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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by ClockWork » 13 Sep 2009, 09:27

hmm...I think, I’m going to play a game using only Cyborgs, except for tank systems turrets, (still going to have mobile anti-air and artillery however.) I’m going to see how that fairs.
Perhaps, this experience will lead me to some discoveries that may make the Cyborg more useful.

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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by Corporal Punishment » 14 Sep 2009, 19:53

I find Cyborgs highly useful acting as Panzergrenadiere, a very german kind of infantry. I assign some MG cyborgs to every tank battalion, to give cheap protection against enemy infantry. Plus they draw some fire away from the tanks. But I agree, Cyborgs in general are not very useful atm. In another thread, I proposed making new kinds of terrain that is not suitable for tanks and can only be passed b cyborgs and light vehicles. I was specifically thinking of forest mountains and debris from destroyed buildings.
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Kacen
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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by Kacen » 14 Sep 2009, 22:15

Corporal Punishment wrote:I find Cyborgs highly useful acting as Panzergrenadiere, a very german kind of infantry. I assign some MG cyborgs to every tank battalion, to give cheap protection against enemy infantry. Plus they draw some fire away from the tanks. But I agree, Cyborgs in general are not very useful atm. In another thread, I proposed making new kinds of terrain that is not suitable for tanks and can only be passed b cyborgs and light vehicles. I was specifically thinking of forest mountains and debris from destroyed buildings.
Perhaps allowing them to move over tank traps would be good (I think my own legged propulsion idea should be able to do so as well.)

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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by KukY » 16 Sep 2009, 10:57

Yesterday i attacked my enemy with 10 super scourges,10 super pulse lasers,10 super rail guns,20 thermite flamers and 10 lancers.Flamers and lancers were walking,and super cyborgs were sent by transports.
My enemy had about 200 units,50-100 cyborg flamers,lancers and MG,50-100units viper wheels with weapons from MG,mini pods to H cannon,and few tiger tracks with scourges,gauss,rail guns,and 10-20 scorpion vtol lancers.(my transports were shooting also).
I destroyed whole my enemy's base.
I thinik cyborgs are ok like they are.

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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by Kacen » 16 Sep 2009, 11:23

From what you said I can gather the enemy was less technologically advanced than you...

I mean if they're using machine guns and lancers then they were lower in the tech tree...AI I assume, seeing as how they used those whilst simultaneously using scourges and other things.

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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by winsrp » 16 Sep 2009, 17:48

5 thought on this....

#1 Cyborgs should be not be as resistant as tanks, since after all... they are cyborgs not robots, and thats the way they are.

#2 They should be cheaper than tanks, which sometimes they are not that much... cyborgs should be a little cheaper.

#3 Cyborgs should not hit that hard, since they should have smaller versions of the big tank weapons, and i'm not really sure how the game is about this, but seems kind of ok.

#4 Cyborgs should be really fast to build, and sometimes they are not that much.

#5 Cyborg factory should be available from the beginning, why should you be able to build up tanks, and not cyborgs... maybe we need grunts on this game, and cyborgs its just the name of the factory upgrade or something like that.. that allows you to use the big guns in little guys (prerequisite for some cyborgs), so we can have machine-gunners and rifleman's as main initial attack units, maybe grenadiers too, so the initial building will be like training facility, and the upgrade will make it a cyborg factory.

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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by KukY » 16 Sep 2009, 19:22

Kacen wrote:From what you said I can gather the enemy was less technologically advanced than you...

I mean if they're using machine guns and lancers then they were lower in the tech tree...AI I assume, seeing as how they used those whilst simultaneously using scourges and other things.
Yes it is AI,Red.

We were about at same level.
But he send all his strong units to attack Orange.
Those weak units are from beginning of match,
when AI builds a lots of weak units and cyborgs
and leaves them in base.
Even I on later levels make about 100 Viper Wheels Inferno,
send VTOLs to destroy factories and other base structures
send Infernos to destroy units in enemy base,
and send VTOLs to destroy those lonely trucks...
Enemy is dead!
winsrp wrote:5 thought on this....

#1 Cyborgs should be not be as resistant as tanks, since after all... they are cyborgs not robots, and thats the way they are.

#2 They should be cheaper than tanks, which sometimes they are not that much... cyborgs should be a little cheaper.

#3 Cyborgs should not hit that hard, since they should have smaller versions of the big tank weapons, and i'm not really sure how the game is about this, but seems kind of ok.

#4 Cyborgs should be really fast to build, and sometimes they are not that much.

#5 Cyborg factory should be available from the beginning, why should you be able to build up tanks, and not cyborgs... maybe we need grunts on this game, and cyborgs its just the name of the factory upgrade or something like that.. that allows you to use the big guns in little guys (prerequisite for some cyborgs), so we can have machine-gunners and rifleman's as main initial attack units, maybe grenadiers too, so the initial building will be like training facility, and the upgrade will make it a cyborg factory.
My opinions:
1-I agree
2-I agree
3-I disagree
4-I agree
5-I disagree

By this:
13KukYNexus666 wrote:Yesterday i attacked my enemy with 10 super scourges,10 super pulse lasers,10 super rail guns,20 thermite flamers and 10 lancers.Flamers and lancers were walking,and super cyborgs were sent by transports.
My enemy had about 200 units,50-100 cyborg flamers,lancers and MG,50-100units viper wheels with weapons from MG,mini pods to H cannon,and few tiger tracks with scourges,gauss,rail guns,and 10-20 scorpion vtol lancers.(my transports were shooting also).
I destroyed whole my enemy's base.
I thinik cyborgs are ok like they are.
I just meant that for me cyborgs are good,but each segment of this game can be made better.

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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by ClockWork » 17 Sep 2009, 08:50

Kacen wrote:1. Cyborg factories should have one module upgrade.

it is true, even the level 3 tank factories can produce at a higher rate.
winsrp wrote:5 thought on this....

#1 Cyborgs should be not be as resistant as tanks, since after all... they are cyborgs not robots, and thats the way they are.
Enlighten me. Are you talking about resistances against tank killer rockets and lancers? Those are generally anti-tank weapons. Machine guns, flamers, and lasers are what you want if you wanna get rid of Cyborg.

winsrp wrote:#2 They should be cheaper than tanks, which sometimes they are not that much... cyborgs should be a little cheaper.
We-e-e-ell, a group of scourge Cyborgs going up against a group of scourge tanks, would be more cost effective, as Cyborgs are more immune to tank killer weapons.

winsrp wrote:#3 Cyborgs should not hit that hard, since they should have smaller versions of the big tank weapons, and i'm not really sure how the game is about this, but seems kind of ok.
They already hit less harder then their tank counter parts.

winsrp wrote:#4 Cyborgs should be really fast to build, and sometimes they are not that much.
Yeeeeah, the Cyborg factories has no module, does it? Although, I suppose it’s a good thing you can have a total of 15 factories making units if your power levels are to high. Besides, if the Cyborg factories got more speed then they did towards production, then the lasers and machine guns would probably need upgrades, to counter the mass amount of, “OMG FLAMER CYBORGS!”

winsrp wrote:#5 Cyborg factory should be available from the beginning, why should you be able to build up tanks, and not cyborgs... maybe we need grunts on this game, and cyborgs its just the name of the factory upgrade or something like that.. that allows you to use the big guns in little guys (prerequisite for some cyborgs), so we can have machine-gunners and rifleman's as main initial attack units, maybe grenadiers too, so the initial building will be like training facility, and the upgrade will make it a cyborg factory.
Because, Cyborgs are the results of the synaptic link technology, while tanks are just wheels and metal slapped together. But, the more other reason, is because Cyborg are more shown once the tank killer weapons come around. Which, I think is reason enough to keep them at the later parts of the T1 beginning battles.

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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by Steeevoe » 17 Sep 2009, 13:15

Clockwork wrote: winsrp wrote:
5 thought on this....

#1 Cyborgs should be not be as resistant as tanks, since after all... they are cyborgs not robots, and thats the way they are.Enlighten me. Are you talking about resistances against tank killer rockets and lancers? Those are generally anti-tank weapons. Machine guns, flamers, and lasers are what you want if you wanna get rid of Cyborg.

nlighten me. Are you talking about resistances against tank killer rockets and lancers? Those are generally anti-tank weapons. Machine guns, flamers, and lasers are what you want if you wanna get rid of Cyborg.
_ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


So you are saying a fast travelling misslile should not cause damage to a small, less armoured machine than what it does to a large, heavily armoured machine?!

What is going on!! Ok you say there are anti-tank weapons, but these are ROCKETS!!! Ok, speed of reload is worst disadvantage again cyborgs, so you don't even need to penilise tanks even more! Anti-tank tanks die to quickly against cyborgs even if they would be shot by massive missiles.

This is the worst balance of the game.




If the game is going to be modified to cause cyborgs to churn out alot quicker, cyborgs would just take over the game and it won't be about tanks any more.

I do think there should be no reason why a normal factory cannot produce cyborgs but a slower rate as it wouldn't be as kitted up as the purpose built factory.

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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by winsrp » 17 Sep 2009, 16:59

come on guys, cyborgs are just recycled guys with some metal spares.... the bigger the weapons the more little guys should die here.

how can cyborgs be useful on this scenario, make them cheap and make them fast to build, its like starcraft with little crappy zergs they die with nothing and you can build a ton in a minute, yes super cyborgs should last longer, but not that much, they are no terminators or such...

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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by whippersnapper » 17 Sep 2009, 18:05

.

In my WS mod the New Cyborgs by XANAX will be more viable to deploy for a number of rational reasons including my modifications based on the current RL military development of Nano Liquid Armor Shielding extrapolated 90+ plus years into the future.. This is being done as well so as to NOT overturn the game's balance in favor of Borgs & Mechs over Tanks. Since it is a Mod you are free to take it or leave it, play it or not. It's just that simple. ;)

Regards, whip :ninja:
.

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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by Corporal Punishment » 17 Sep 2009, 19:31

@ Steveoe: Try hitting an individual soldier with a MILAN rocket or any other type of anti-vehicle-ordnance. Just won't work. Target moves out of the missile's path to rapidly because it is so much smaller than a tank, simple as that. Even hitting close to a soldier renders little to no effect, for these weapons feature hollow charge warheads that direct the blast energy onto one little point in the axis of the ordnance. Fired some in my time, trust me on this one. RPG's are a different matter, these under all anti-vehicle weapons alone can be effective against infantry provided the target is in a confined space like a trench or dugout. But WZ has nothing like it. Balancing of missiles when hitting cyborgs is good the way it is.
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Re: Cyborgs - Making them more useful.

Post by Kacen » 17 Sep 2009, 20:11

Man seeing all these posts puts me at a dilemma.

I mean okay, I genuinely believe cyborgs take too long to build in comparison to vehicles.

However people have brought up good points.

Kinda not sure now what should be done. The balance threshold seems to be a very fine line.

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