Leg Propulsion - A new approach.

[zeland]

Thought the Cyberbots images on the 2nd page would have served its purpose as a general guide to your idea.

[alienkid10]

my images are just concept since I can't make the model come into the game.

[ClockWork]

Firstly, I'd say give it the lowest weight support, lower than even hover.

Please do tell, how is it that the hover has the lowest weight support of all the tank propulsions?

Not only does it suffer the least weight penalties, but its total speed is left at %100 instead of being cut at %80 with the other tank propulsions. Not only that, but it has the best tank speed capped at 300.

Unless…I’m missing something here.

[Kacen]

Please do tell, how is it that the hover has the lowest weight support of all the tank propulsions?

Not only does it suffer the least weight penalties, but its total speed is left at %100 instead of being cut at %80 with the other tank propulsions. Not only that, but it has the best tank speed capped at 300.

Unless…I’m missing something here.

How heavy a propulsion type is has it's advantage. This is cumulative with how heavy a body is.

Put a large turret on a small body and watch how slow it goes, not like Tiger/Tracks and a heavy turret slow but slow as in molasses slow. Like put a heavy cannon or an archangel on a bug with wheels and it moves so slowly it's only use is as a semi-mobile turret with bad armor. (I only use that as cheap anti-air base defense actually, whirlwinds on bug/wheels, also so it's easier to replace later on in T3 when I get Stormbringers/SAMs; it's easier to just recycle those than to painstakingly demolish old Whirlwind emplacements/hardpoints to make room.)

A vehicle with tracks has the least chance of reaching that threshold where it becomes that f*****g slow.

Hover is the opposite. Wheels support a bit more weight and that plus price are the only advantage wheels have over hover. Half tracks are intermediate between tracks and wheels in that sense, and in every other way.

Admittedly though most cases of hover not supporting weight well can be negated with a larger body to compensate. Propulsion however has a rather large influence on weight support, moreso than the body, with tracks being the best at supporting weight.

Technically as of now there are no bodies than can support the plasma cannon. Take a Dragon with Tracks (the body/propulsion combo that supports the most weight) and it still moves so slowly it's useless (even then if it moved fast it would still be fairly useless because well it's the plasma cannon).

VTOLs support the least weight but they have exclusive weapons so it's usually not an issue, though even as of now anything with plasmite bombs, even Dragons, move slow as hell (even for a medium/light ground vehicle), but in that case it's balancing because of how powerful they are.

Though it's a bit inconsistent. I used to think that in order to reach that useless speed threshold the turret's weight had to exceed the combined weight of the propulsion and body, but through testing it seems that some turrets that exceed the combined body/propulsion weight work fine on vehicle's I've made, though they didn't exceed it by huge amounts.

As of now I'm not really sure what the threshold is. I suppose engine power fits into the equation as well though I'm not sure how I can make a comparison simply because engine numbers are so high in general.

[ClockWork]

Now, you see, a Dragon Body with tracks…even with a measly sensor, is STILL SLOW! Lets face it, Dragon/Tracks combination with anything-no, let me caps it-ANYTHING is still slow!

If you want to support a plasma cannon, use the Dragon/Hover combo instead. In fact, that particular combo is faster then any tracked combination you can find, because track speed is capped at 125, while the aforementioned Dragon/hover/plasma cannon goes at a speed of 139, (With all the speed upgrades. Which, should not matter, as you need all the speed upgrades to get the Dragon body anyway.)

For every other weapon and propulsion combination, the vengeance/hover supports the most weight. Actually, the Vengeance supports more weight then the Dragon, due to the fact, that it is faster with every single combination of different weapons you can think of. However, the Dragon/Hover/plasma cannon does 139 speeds, while the Vengeance/Hover/Plasma Cannon does 136 speeds. The difference? 3. And that is the ONLY exception where the Dragon supports more weight. Slap both those combinations with any other propulsions, and the vengeance is faster.

Go ahead. Try any weapon with a vengeance/hover and it will be faster then any other tank, (or at least the same speeds of 300, which hover is capped at.)

So please, PLEASE stop recycling the myth that the Dragon body supports the most weight. Until there is something heavier then the Plasma Cannon, The Dragon/Hover is the only combination, that’s faster then any Vengeance/hover combo.(I think…I’m not sure, but I think I sounded like a jerk just then.)


So, yes, the hover supports the most tank based weight.

I do like the idea of spider bots, however.

[PC89]

I understand the concept of suggestions and ideas that could enhance the game, but isnt this becoming farfetched and Warzone 2100 is becoming less and less original it may as well be renamed something else?!

[ClockWork]

I understand the concept of suggestions and ideas that could enhance the game, but isnt this becoming farfetched and Warzone 2100 is becoming less and less original it may as well be renamed something else?!

You do have a point. Kinda like, watering down some good rum.

However, it could still be an optional mod for those that wish to have the game stay close to the original Warzone as close as possible. Although some people want different things for fun, there will always be those that truly believes that the original vanilla stuff without sprinkles, or chocolate syrup is just as fun.

I’m sorry about saying all those mean things about you, honest I am.

Wait, what?

[PC89]

You do have a point. Kinda like, watering down some good rum.

However, it could still be an optional mod for those that wish to have the game stay close to the original Warzone as close as possible. Although some people want different things for fun, there will always be those that truly believes that the original vanilla stuff without sprinkles, or chocolate syrup is just as fun.

I’m sorry about saying all those mean things about you, honest I am.

Wait, what?

Lol I suppose a mod would be acceptable, as it would make it easier to have Warzone 2100 original as possible! I'm all up for new ideas and enhancements, but dont want to lose the real flavour of what Warzone 2100 is all about!

[Kacen]

Most legs mods do detract from Warzone simply because every time it's suggested it's some stupid idiotic mech warriors type mech with no practical realistic advantage over any other propulsion and cannot fill any realistic niche.

My idea actually gives legs merit.

[Olrox]

Most legs mods do detract from Warzone simply because every time it's suggested it's some stupid idiotic mech warriors type mech with no practical realistic advantage over any other propulsion and cannot fill any realistic niche.

My idea actually gives legs merit.

Yeah, let's throw sh*t on the ceiling ventilator, like some friend of mine would say.

[White_Glint]

Fundamentally it seems like a solid idea, given it's design. A quad-legged mech has the advantage when going over rough terrain, and would theoretically be able to scale things like cliffs if given the right proportions. Really, though, I could see it as more of a high-speed overland vehical that can clear rivers, gorges and shoot over walls. Traditionally, mech-type legs are hailed for their toughness and mobility, especially over treaded vehicals. "Power of a tank with the mobility of a soldier" and all that. It also couldn't hurt to explore the idea of a larger, custom body specifically for the mech, along with the appropriate weapons. Nothing fancy, mind you, but this does open up a whole new aspect to the game. The trick to it is to make it balanced enough so that multiplayer games don't turn into "Who gets mech legs first", which is what could happen if they were able to transverse a major impediment like cliffs.

Another perspective is that, if the unit itself is large enough for it, it could potentially exist as a transport vehicle. I had noticed that, somewhere in one of the sticky topics in this forum, the idea of a Cyborg transport was under speculation. Coupled with that, I did notice some discourse about 2, 4 and 6 legged units. From one perspective, one can say that it would be too techy, or too sci-fi generic, but in reality those could be used as separate propulsion formats. Two leggers are faster, but weaker, four leggers are balanced, and six leggers are slower, but stronger.

Really, it all falls into the category of theoreticals, but these are all bridges that need to be crossed at some point in time. With the addition of legs, you're asking to spawn a whole nother niche in the Warzone genre. The rest of it all falls into aesthetics, but that's the general gist of it, as far as I can tell.

[Kacen]

If you read the post fully I claimed the legged units would have below-average armor, maybe even less than wheels.

They're speed would be average, maybe around half-tracks.

[White_Glint]

Then you're pushing for just an omni-mobile weapons platform? Something that can scale cliffs and whatnot? Then what's the point, if that's the only tactical advantage. With less armor than the wheels, or even close to it, a couple of morter turrets would rip the unit apart, not to mention something heavier like a Lancer turret, vehicle mounted or otherwise. With half-track speed, the units would become moving targets, and any real advantages you'd get out of the omni-terrain movement would be offset by artillery and hard emplacements, especially considering the fact that by tier 2-3 you've already got the better treads backing you up, like hovers.

Coupled with that, you've got the issue of cost balancing. Legs, for the research and the creation cost, would either have to be cheap and mostly worthless, or expensive and flexible, or you'll have something that you'll only see on the battlefield for their aesthetic purposes. Making an intentionally weak movement format with one minor advantage doesn't really offset the cost of making them, nor the time it would take for an artist or programmer to get around to plugging it all together for the mod to work properly.

At most, I could see a walker with a truck back or bombard hiding out on some hard to reach cliff, and even then, they'd only really serve well there until someone got around to getting a couple of morter tanks in range.

Ultimately, it falls to your opinion on what you want, but in all honesty, when it comes to legs, either make them worth it or don't at all.

[TVR]

... when it comes to legs, either make them worth it or don't at all ...

A key gameplay mechanic of Warzone 2100 is the vehicle design element, which is related to a concept known as mechanical balancing.

Unit specifications are based entirely on realistic engineering specifications, rather than trying to achieve a homogeneous balance; unit design is not predetermined, and may adapt as strategies call for.

Such is why heavy weapons are permitted on light chassis, useless besides functioning as a mobile turret, but serve to reinforce realistic engineering paradigms, while also rewarding innovative strategies.

[Roux Le Corps]

TVR i agree with you, the option to have the "useless" crawler on a cliff could also help fortify a defensive position, getting turrets into hard or otherwise impossible positions, but imagine if you will....

The AMBUSH values...

you send a whole bunch of heavy tanks into some cliffs, a risky strategy but a scanner buggy made it through ok, so you send them down, only to find when the cliffs open apart and the shroud is removed a whole bunch of crawlers with anti tank attached to the cliff... then they pour off the walls...