Tracks should come before half-tracks.

[Kacen]

It is entirely illogical that at any point in time a player has the technology to create half-tracks but not the technology to create tracks. Half-tracks is the combination of the technology of wheels and the technology of tracks; if one has the know-how to make half-tracks they have the know-how to make tracks individually.

If it were realistic, there would be be no half-tracks research topic, you'd just research tracks and the moment you do you have access to half-tracks as well as tracks in the design menu.

I know this will be an issue to balance in the campaign (perhaps giving the player tracks earlier, in place of where the half-tracks artifact is found?), but I don't see it causing a problem in skirmish.

Then again, we're talking realism, and I guess half-tracks, at least the attributes given to them in game, are a bit unreal. I mean why would half-tracks be faster than tracks?

The only IRL advantage of half-tracks over fully-tracked vehicles is they use the same mechanism to turn as wheeled vehicles, making them easier to drive; this is something that can't be replicated nor should be in WZ2100.

Slightly related, I noticed that all ground vehicles seem to drive forward whenever ordered to turn. This should only be the case with wheeled and half-tracked, as tracks posses the capability to rotate in place. Hover I'm not sure.

Then again, when artillery is aimed, all vehicles regardless of propulsion turn in place. Perhaps these issues can be rectified to be more realistic?

[Tenoh]

Dont think ppl care.As far as i know half tracks were made to navigate swampy terrain.Too bad terrain doesn't effect here the speed of propulsion.

[Kacen]

Dont think ppl care.As far as i know half tracks were made to navigate swampy terrain.

Erm, no.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-track

They were designed to have the all-terrain and weight supporting advantages of tracked vehicles with the simpler handling and easy to produce steering system of wheels. A half-track could be steered just like a car by turning the two front wheels, whilst maintaining much of the advantageous all-terrain characteristics of tracks.

Such cannot be done on fully tracked vehicles, which require a more complex steering system where one track moves one way and the other moves the other, essentially making the tracked vehicle rotate in place...this is conversely an advantage over half-tracked or wheeled propulsion in it's own right, as being able to turn in place has it's merit.

Essentially the only advantage of half-tracks over tracks in real life is it's easier to drive (turning) and simpler to produce.

Too bad terrain doesn't effect here the speed of propulsion.

Actually, yes it does. Tracks are the least effected by bumpy terrain, then comes half tracks, then wheels, and then hover, the effect being they slow down. Tracks barely slow down at all on bumpy terrain, maintaining most of their top speed.

Conversely, wheels and especially hover are severely slowed down by bumpy terrain. Half-tracks are the middle-ground between wheels and tracks in that aspect, as they are with every other aspect.

Oh, and cyborgs aren't effected at all by bumpy terrain, maintaining their top speed at all times. I guess that's the advantages of "legged" propulsion.

[Deus Siddis]

It is entirely illogical that at any point in time a player has the technology to create half-tracks but not the technology to create tracks.

This is wrong. The first tank was essentially a half-track, it used tracks for propulsion but had a wheel in the back acting as a "rudder" for steering (the English who invented it, were still entirely obsessed with boats at the time). Later on in the (first world) war they improved the design by making each of the two tracks able to move at a different speeds (or do so more effectively) and removed the rear rudder wheel, so that it was no longer a half track, but the kind of tank we see today (except in every other way, heh).

So half-tracks should realistically come before tracks; unless you are proposing an early tracked propulsion that needs an upgrade to be able to turn?

And it makes more sense for game balance as well.

[Kacen]

This is wrong. The first tank was essentially a half-track, it used tracks for propulsion but had a wheel in the back acting as a "rudder" for steering (the English who invented it, were still entirely obsessed with boats at the time). Later on in the (first world) war they improved the design by making each of the two tracks able to move at a different speeds (or do so more effectively) and removed the rear rudder wheel, so that it was no longer a half track, but the kind of tank we see today (except in every other way, heh).

Mmm, well I just always pictured these half tracks as being more equivalent to World War II-types; the M3 immediately comes to mind, for instance.

I wasn't considering the early Mark I tank with the rear "rudder" wheels simply because the reasoning behind the WWII half-tracks and Mark I tank's rear wheels were different. I know they essentially accomplished the same thing, but they were done for completely different reasons. The Mark I tank had the rear wheels because they didn't know at the time how to turn a tracked vehicle with treads alone, the later half-tracks had wheels for reasons mentioned in my former post.

I picture the Warzone 2100 half-tracks as being like the latter rather than the former. If they were the former I would think they'd be awfully outclassed in every possible way by tracks beyond belief.

I still think my other suggestions, such as only allowing tracked propulsion to rotate in place, should be considered.(Still not sure about hover.)

So half-tracks should realistically come before tracks; unless you are proposing an early tracked propulsion that needs an upgrade to be able to turn?

Err, no, that would be overtly drastic and somewhat ridiculous.

And it makes more sense for game balance as well.

I understand that, even mentioning it in the first post.

[Zarel]

I'm assuming you want this moved to Suggestions, too?

Also, considering half-tracks really did come before tracks, I'm guessing I don't need to go and change that. Good thing, too, since it would be pretty hard to balance.

The "only tracks can rotate in place" suggestion goes under "Too hard to implement", although if another dev wants to implement them, I won't stop them.

So half-tracks should realistically come before tracks; unless you are proposing an early tracked propulsion that needs an upgrade to be able to turn?

I find this hilarious.

[Deus Siddis]

I find this hilarious.

Also Vertical Take Off and Landing could do exactly what its name implies quite effectively from the beginning, but needs a thrust vectoring upgrade to be able to move horizontally.

[Corporal Punishment]

Even if the Idea of half-tracks in history spawned from making tracked vehicles easier to handle/produce, I think it is rightfull to put them before Tracks in WZ. The point is, we're dealing with a post-nuclear world in the near future. People still remember the pre-collapse world, so have knowlege about tracks right away but lack the specifications to set them to work. Picking up on the Idea of half-tracks is a logical thing to do until their engineers manage to replicate the designes of pre-collapse tracked chassis. The tech tree shold therefor stay as it is.

[Kacen]

Even if the Idea of half-tracks in history spawned from making tracked vehicles easier to handle/produce, I think it is rightfull to put them before Tracks in WZ. The point is, we're dealing with a post-nuclear world in the near future. People still remember the pre-collapse world, so have knowlege about tracks right away but lack the specifications to set them to work. Picking up on the Idea of half-tracks is a logical thing to do until their engineers manage to replicate the designes of pre-collapse tracked chassis. The tech tree shold therefor stay as it is.

Mmm, okay, you've managed to convince me.

[Olrox]

And, as you said, maybe the tech tree advances because of the steering mechanisms. The wheels are the simplest, half tracks still use only part of the technology, and tracks use only the most complex steering system of the 3. That adds to Corporal Punishment's supposition, as the people would remember the tracks system layout, but would lack technology and, therefore, the blueprints for making such mechanisms.
Leaving aside the balance aspect, that is.

[Kacen]

And, as you said, maybe the tech tree advances because of the steering mechanisms. The wheels are the simplest, half tracks still use only part of the technology, and tracks use only the most complex steering system of the 3. That adds to Corporal Punishment's supposition, as the people would remember the tracks system layout, but would lack technology and, therefore, the blueprints for making such mechanisms.
Leaving aside the balance aspect, that is.

Yeah I admit now that my suggestion is flawed, I never really thought about it.

This thread is defunct, for me at least.