Playing with the reticule

Ideas and suggestions for how to improve the Warzone 2100 base game only. Ideas for mods go in Mapping/Modding instead. Read sticky posts first!

Re: Playing with the reticule

Postby Per » 06 Dec 2017, 10:37

I'll post my idea for how to use the reticule buttons later (though note that I did not suggest removing the right-click unit menu - secondary orders would stay there). I'll just point out that you are proving my point. Asking for 14 buttons for commanders, is exactly what I fear would happen if adding a huge blue button field. You'd turn an RTS into a flight simulator. There is just no way you need an always-present button for "go to the transport", for example, and not having one in no way removes tactical options or control from the player.
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Re: Playing with the reticule

Postby MIH-XTC » 06 Dec 2017, 17:08

I’m confused, what you’re describing is exactly what the right click menu does. Why would you move the secondary unit orders to the reticule menu??? Changing the reticule menu when selecting a unit is a really bad idea. You’re saying that if you want to access the research or factory menus, you must first deselect all of your units??? And then if you select a unit while on the research menu it disappears? You mean to say that you cannot be on the research menu and control units at the same time???? That's how 90% of all multiplayer games are played. Almost all players have the research menu open while controlling units. If I'm in the middle of a battle and want to check on research, I have to unselect all of my units?

Why not just add additional unit functionality to the secondary unit menu how it's supposed to? If it's such a pain to right click a unit, just make a default hotkey to bring up the secondary unit menu.
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Re: Playing with the reticule

Postby Per » 06 Dec 2017, 21:29

MIH-XTC wrote:I’m confused, what you’re describing is exactly what the right click menu does. Why would you move the secondary unit orders to the reticule menu???

Just one post earlier, I wrote:
Per wrote:I did not suggest removing the right-click unit menu - secondary orders would stay there

In case it is unclear exactly what a secondary order is, it is those behaviour states (in usually three choices) that you can set that are not unset by any other states or orders. Primary orders, on the other hand, you can only have one of at the same time (move, attack, patrol, build, etc.). I know these aren't the clearest terms, but it is how it is called in the code...

MIH-XTC wrote:You’re saying that if you want to access the research or factory menus, you must first deselect all of your units???

No, you can press F1-F6 or click the research structure, just as before. Or right mouse click anywhere but on a droid/structure to deselect everything, then click the reticule.

MIH-XTC wrote:And then if you select a unit while on the research menu it disappears?

No.
MIH-XTC wrote:You mean to say that you cannot be on the research menu and control units at the same time????

No.

MIH-XTC wrote:Why not just add additional unit functionality to the secondary unit menu how it's supposed to? If it's such a pain to right click a unit, just make a default hotkey to bring up the secondary unit menu.

From the original post:
Per wrote:Q: Why am I playing around with this?
A: I've long tried to find some way to visualize common unit actions for the player, to avoid depending on memorization of hotkeys from not easily accessible documentation and/or options. I think this is a very big problem for new and regular players both.
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Re: Playing with the reticule

Postby MIH-XTC » 06 Dec 2017, 23:41

Per wrote:No, you can press F1-F6 or click the research structure, just as before. Or right mouse click anywhere but on a droid/structure to deselect everything, then click the reticule.



Right, and that makes things very confusing. Instead of using a hotkey to bring up the research menu we can keep everything the way it is and use a hotkey to bring up the unit menu.

There's absolutely no reason why droid orders whether it be secondary or primary not be on the unit menu where they belong. That's what the unit menu is for, unit orders.

Swapping out the reticule for unit orders and then using hotkeys to get back to the original reticule is...????
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Re: Playing with the reticule

Postby Bethrezen » 07 Dec 2017, 15:00

I'll post my idea for how to use the reticule buttons later (though note that I did not suggest removing the right-click unit menu - secondary orders would stay there). I'll just point out that you are proving my point.


Perhaps what is need here is a clearer explanation of what it is that you are intending with these changes then, because clearly there is some confusion as to what this is intended to achieve, because....

Q: Why am I playing around with this?
A: I've long tried to find some way to visualize common unit actions for the player, to avoid depending on memorization of hotkeys from not easily accessible documentation and/or options. I think this is a very big problem for new and regular players both. I've tried various variations of the existing GUI widgets, but none looked even remotely acceptable to me. So I wondered if maybe the reticule could be used for this purpose.


makes it sound like you are trying to replace the unit menu, which as i already pointed out wont work, also note that my comments where based on the premise that you where trying to replace the right click unit menu in order to make it more accessible particularly for players new to the game.

In any event if you are not trying to replace the unit menu then what is it that you are trying to do ?

In case it is unclear exactly what a secondary order is, it is those behaviour states (in usually three choices) that you can set that are not unset by any other states or orders. Primary orders, on the other hand, you can only have one of at the same time (move, attack, patrol, build, etc.). I know these aren't the clearest terms, but it is how it is called in the code...


Well clearly that is not the definition pumpkin was using for secondary commands or half the buttons that are on the unit menu wouldn't be there. As far as i can tell secondary commands are all commands other then attack, move and stop, at least as far as combat units go, and things like hold fire, hold position, retreat at x damage are secondary states not secondary commands.

Clearly looking at the unit menu this was the definition that pumpkin used as well, and trying to make hold into a primary order instead of a secondary state only confuses matters further not to mention the fact that it just doesn't work as well either, although that is a discussion for another topic.
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Re: Playing with the reticule

Postby Per » 07 Dec 2017, 20:39

Bethrezen wrote:Clearly looking at the unit menu this was the definition that pumpkin used as well

Well, there is no doubt as to what Pumpkin meant, because they codified it into the source code. See
https://github.com/Warzone2100/warzone2100/blob/4ce5cd91edc6a27cfebbe7a7fbac49fd4817d811/src/order.h which is pretty much a reference to the original source. The right-click unit menu contains a mix of secondary and primary orders.

I'm not sure how much is to be gained by further discussion now. Let's hold on until I have something that can be tested. Work on the required scripting changes won't be wasted in any case, since it is also useful for mods / further tutorial improvements.
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