More Expensive but better

Ideas and suggestions for how to improve the Warzone 2100 base game only. Ideas for mods go in Mapping/Modding instead. Read sticky posts first!
maik2012
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More Expensive but better

Post by maik2012 » 31 Mar 2013, 12:32

Sometimes i think especially in NTW, that their are only few strategies that work and i wonder if you could bring in more variations. There could be extra expensive defensive structures, which are also much better. You could also implement an adjustment to building speed, construction speed, research speed, which makes these things more expensive, but faster. For example a player is gambling that he doesn't get attcked early. He saves a lot of money, then if python is available, he adjusts the building speed to three times as fast, (its also three times more expensive) and he could bring out a lot of high grade units in a short time.

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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by NoQ » 31 Mar 2013, 14:46

I think you already answered your question. Why don't you just stop playing NTW if you already see how much limited it is? It's the easiest way to add more strategies.
He saves a lot of money, then if python is available, he adjusts the building speed to three times as fast, (its also three times more expensive) and he could bring out a lot of high grade units in a short time.
Or just remove production process at all. Click the button and get the unit, right? NTW already has money management removed. Production speed is the only thing that gives us a slight hope to balance both standard game and NTW (which is already a nonsense: only when strict map making guidelines are imposed can there be a balance in the game).

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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by Rommel » 31 Mar 2013, 19:05

NoQ wrote:I think you already answered your question. Why don't you just stop playing NTW if you already see how much limited it is? It's the easiest way to add more strategies.
NoQ, As much as you might want, people are not going to stop playing NTW, the fact is that most people playing MP actually like NTW more than the other forms of the game. Yes there are some issues with certain strats being OP, but it is not imo right to just respond to such issues by telling people to just stop playing NTW and play the form of the game that you prefer.

Of late I have been playing mostly 3v3 NTW and if people's pings are ok there has been hardly any problem with lag and such. Like it or not NTW is here to stay and those of the community enjoying the NTW form of the game deserve as much notice in regards to having their issues solved as those that enjoy other forms of the game.

In regards to Maik's comments:
Sometimes i think especially in NTW, that their are only few strategies that work and i wonder if you could bring in more variations. There could be extra expensive defensive structures, which are also much better.
There are quite a few variations that can be explored here, start the game at a higher tech level is one that I can think of - I have been starting games lately at level 2 (the middle option) which is much better if players are not so experienced as there is not the issue of truck rush and peeps can build up adequate defenses and such. You can also play some different kind of NTW maps that also have some geographical features that can allow easier defending of choke points and such.
For example a player is gambling that he doesn't get attcked early. He saves a lot of money, then if python is available, he adjusts the building speed to three times as fast, (its also three times more expensive) and he could bring out a lot of high grade units in a short time.
The true gamble here is that the opposition is inexperienced, because experienced players are going to be attacking you at the soonest available opportunity. With NTW you should be producing units at all times and not "saving up" for anything, remember that if someone comes at you with 100 cobra HMG and you have just started to produce your pythons you are a goner. The best thing to do is produce and upgrade as you go, producing your pythons on top of what units you already have. Really this is not just for NTW, this holds true for most other forms of the game...

If the game has experienced players you will get to the expensive units in due time, there is a guy calls himself Rokit or some such and it is not strange to see a whole army of tank killers / scrouge as well as seraphim come at you if the game progresses... quite a site to see (very scary hahahahah).

Remember to keep researching oil upgrades, build up adequate defenses so that you don't need to be producing the most expensive unit to keep the opponents army off your back, cobra HMG with adequate defenses and repair yards (including mortar pits) will do most of the time.

When the time comes and you actually need the heavy python units you should have enough oil by then - in most cases I don't produce heavy units until ripple rockets (emplacements) and more advanced turrets appear like twin auto cannon and tank killer. The main issue with cheaper units like the cobra HMG is that you need to have the defense support of mortar pits as the enemy can get a range advantage with rocket pods and lancers, these are pretty weak units against defense and will get hurt by your mortars.

In the end all I can say is that I have played hundreds of NTW games and have encountered many different scenarios, even times when those few unbeatable strats have been, well beaten by some unorthodox play seizing some moment of uncertainty or plain stupidity from the opposition.
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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 31 Mar 2013, 23:25

Still, I doubt that the devs would consider rebalancing Warzone 2100's base game to provide NTW fans a more balanced experience at the expense of its core audience. With that in mind, I'd suggest creating a mod that would rebalance Warzone 2100 for a more NTW-oriented audience. (You could possibly even program a mod that would do away with the need to acquire resources altogether. ;) )
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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by Rommel » 01 Apr 2013, 00:15

To be honest I haven't really found balance to be such an issue, apart from the irritation of Flamers, but maybe this is a necessary part of the game as much as I hate it lol!
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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by stiv » 01 Apr 2013, 04:00

As much as you might want, people are not going to stop playing NTW, the fact is that most people playing MP actually like NTW
If you are happy playing a stripped-down version of the game, have at it. But don't expect people to listen when you complain about it being limited.

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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by Rommel » 01 Apr 2013, 04:11

If you are happy playing a stripped-down version of the game, have at it. But don't expect people to listen when you complain about it being limited.
Care to elaborate? I really fail to see how NTW is stripped down... also I cannot recall complaining about limitations. But even if I did have need to complain I believe I have just as much right as any other community member to be listened to.
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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by NoQ » 01 Apr 2013, 04:19

NoQ, As much as you might want, people are not going to stop playing NTW, the fact is that most people playing MP actually like NTW more than the other forms of the game.
Right, I should've PM'd the topicstarter, sorry :?
also I cannot recall complaining about limitations
Considering that you just realized that you can't research at double speed, you probably still have a few years before you start seeing more advanced stuff :|

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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by Iluvalar » 01 Apr 2013, 06:45

Rommel wrote:
If you are happy playing a stripped-down version of the game, have at it. But don't expect people to listen when you complain about it being limited.
Care to elaborate? I really fail to see how NTW is stripped down... also I cannot recall complaining about limitations. But even if I did have need to complain I believe I have just as much right as any other community member to be listened to.
NTW style have 3 main differences with normal low oil map.
1- More units.
2- Limitations in the capacity to spend it.
3- Cheaper research.

1- More units are just a mere illusion. You could imagine (when I was young, we had that a least) that one viper represent 5 of them and a low oil would be like a high oil in that aspect. Maybe we could even ask jorzi to make pie models that represent a squad of units instead of just one. :lol2:

3- Cheaper research might be what you are really looking in when you play NTW. But that could be easily modded. Or you could just ask for a throttle button in the lobby if you want to adjust that particular aspect.

Which leave us with only one major change : 2- NTW style games are most likely played because it limit the production/research capacity. Which prevent the players to make the choice to spend too much in a particular area.
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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by Rommel » 01 Apr 2013, 15:49

NoQ wrote:Considering that you just realized that you can't research at double speed, you probably still have a few years before you start seeing more advanced stuff :|
me wrote:I have wondered, if 2 or more a researching the same item, is it researched faster?
"Faster" != double speed; when concocting your thinly veiled insults you should at least get the facts right. I thought there *may* have been a slight speed increase, but even then this was not something I ever thought of so much and it is not really self evident...

Anyway sorry to rock the old boy's boat with all this talk of NTW ;)
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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by NoQ » 01 Apr 2013, 20:47

Iluvalar wrote:NTW style have 3 main differences with normal low oil map.
1- More units.
2- Limitations in the capacity to spend it.
3- Cheaper research.
Also terrain, if we assume that a "normal" low oil map has some.
Quite a huge piece of strategy and tactics to throw away.

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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by Jorzi » 01 Apr 2013, 22:45

Having played both NTW and low-oil games, I see NTW as a sort of training. It has fewer variables and is therefore easier to master. I think NTW is good in the respect that I have gained a certain level of automation, being able to perform basic tasks while thinking more about the bigger picture.
@OP, "saving money for later" is inevitably a bad strategy for NTW, even with the added possibilities you're discussing.
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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by effigy » 02 Apr 2013, 00:15

Jorzi wrote:Having played both NTW and low-oil games, I see NTW as a sort of training...
Same here. Maps like these are a great way for people to learn the tech tree, and experiment with tech.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by stiv » 02 Apr 2013, 03:54

I really fail to see how NTW is stripped down.
It removes two of the defining qualities of WZ: the competition for energy resources, and the constraint of having to work with a limited energy budget. Add in flat terrain, and you have essentially turned WZ into chess.

Not that there is anything wrong with that. As Abe Lincoln said, people who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like. Knock yourself out.

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Re: More Expensive but better

Post by NoQ » 02 Apr 2013, 04:38

the competition for energy resources
Yeah, that too (:

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