Power #4 Paranoia

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Lord Apocalypse
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Lord Apocalypse » 16 Jul 2012, 21:12

zydonk wrote: So what is the failure here? Version 2.3.9 is the latest stable version of WZ2100 and yet no support is offered for it. The present candidate 3.1, has been through a long series of betas that seem to be correcting smaller and smaller problems, while large problems (esp the render) that make the game almost unplayable are ignored. WZ dev may just be out of control, with individual devs pushing their own specialities/agendas to the detriment of the overall game.

This happens. The basic job has been done. 2.3.9 – with a few embellishments – is probably as good as WZ will get, given its age and the limitations of its code. There is no mp heaven awaiting you – I bet most of the devs already know that.

I address Staff – whoever you are today – let the members ventilate this topic fully this time. If they think it nonsense they will say so, without you having to decide for them. That’s a better way to run this forum.
2.3.9 is stable yes, but no longer supported.. hmm, lets see why this is. Most projects have a given life cycle for each major release. If there is no one to maintain said lifecycle it is left to die. There are not enough devs to keep both 2.3.9 and 3.1 going. Point in fact, there are too few devs to really keep 3.1 going with the release often mentality that many open source projects use.

The main project I help run does not and it is also part of the reason that things are rather stagnant. Release often is a good way to keep the project fresh in the minds of its userbase. If someone is willing to keep 2.3.9 in a maintenance release state (bug fixes only) until 3.1 hits stable that would be great, but it probably won't happen.

Now, as a forum admin there are certain things you cannot allow to happen. Even if you have a heavy handed staff (which is also a great way to drive off users) there should reason posted for locking threads as well as a warning for deleting them. With the exception of warez or porn ads anyway. At any rate, some of the rules (especially against general chat) are rather heavy handed and extremely vague. The difference between the two is in the eyes of the beholder. A situation not well liked and easy to abuse.

Actual infractions of forum rules should not be tolerated, but must also be handled fairly and evenly by all persons of power. No moderation kills a board. Draconian usage of bans/locks will kill a board just as easily.. Finding a balance though is the most difficult as one thread may offend one mod while being non offensive to other mods or forum users.

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Rman Virgil
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Rman Virgil » 16 Jul 2012, 21:19

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Now, as a forum admin there are certain things you cannot allow to happen. Even if you have a heavy handed staff (which is also a great way to drive off users) there should reason posted for locking threads as well as a warning for deleting them. With the exception of warez or porn ads anyway. At any rate, some of the rules (especially against general chat) are rather heavy handed and extremely vague. The difference between the two is in the eyes of the beholder. A situation not well liked and easy to abuse.

Actual infractions of forum rules should not be tolerated, but must also be handled fairly and evenly by all persons of power. No moderation kills a board. Draconian usage of bans/locks will kill a board just as easily.. Finding a balance though is the most difficult as one thread may offend one mod while being non offensive to other mods or forum users.
+1

I know your first hand experience encompasses a couple decades. ;)

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Paul
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Paul » 16 Jul 2012, 21:28

zydonk wrote:Here is the text of a pm I received. You may or may not know what it is about – if only because all the topics and posts referred to have been arbitrarily removed from the forum.
Re: Power #3
Sent: Yesterday, 02:02
From: Staff
To: zydonk
zydonk wrote:Here is the text of a pm I received. You may or may not know what it is about – if only because all the topics and posts referred to have been arbitrarily removed from the forum.
it is bad Etiquette to do this without both parties consent.
A topic concerning an mp “World Tournament” was suddenly suspended without a reasonable explanation. A new topic was started to ask why this had happened, to which I added my voice. As happens on forums, the ensuing discussion ranged widely on and off topic. Then a post which began which “Cease and desist” pretty well shut down the topic, again without a reasonable explanation, either for shutting down this topic or for the suspension of the World Tournament topic.
why should they give you an explanation at all?
I then started a new topic, entitled “Power”, which drew attention to the change of tone in the moderation of the forum and wondered why it was happening. A very lively discussion ensued – mostly on topic this time – but this topic was locked in less than 24 hours, and again without any explanation.
that you saw.
I started topic “Power #2” – referred to in the pm above – which asked if locking an active topic so quickly was unusual. As this was held back for “Examination”, I then started a new topic in the Discussion Section, entitled Power #3. The initial post is quoted above. When I found that it had loaded immediately, I followed it up with a second post repeating the text of the “Power #2” post, hoping in this way to circumvent what seemed an attempt at censorship.

I notice this morning that all the topics I refer to here have been removed from the forum. Goodness knows what else has been “cleaned” out.
yeah, damn them for following their own rules and doing whatever they thought appropriate! DAMN THEM! :roll:
I address Staff – whoever you are today – let the members ventilate this topic fully this time. If they think it nonsense they will say so, without you having to decide for them. That’s a better way to run this forum.
The members have no rights here since it is not their server. Everyone is here as a guest. You follow the rules set in place for all the guests and if you don't like those rules you do as the rules state instead of trying to split the community to take sides.
that is why you should have a nice long vacation to think about what you have done.

iap
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by iap » 16 Jul 2012, 21:33

No moderation kills a board. Draconian usage of bans/locks will kill a board just as easily..
Giving explanations and warnings is a must for locking and deleting threads in open communities... At least this is my opinion.

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Rman Virgil
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Rman Virgil » 16 Jul 2012, 22:10

.

The dynamic between the "Inn Keepers" and their "Guests" is more involved than who owns the server and IP service.

In a very real sense they rely on each other as custodians of the game's thriving present AND future.

I think the small fraction of the entire fan base that actively participate, in one way or another, do so because the game's thriving present AND future matters to them enough to do and not just take what is offered and stand on the sidelines as lurkers. It is only natural that there will be disagreement but what makes the difference that makes a difference between thriving and a "ghost town" is in the nuanced handling of disagreements. There is such a thing as agreeing to disagree without becoming maliciously disagreeable and that is a powerfully positive state to achieve.

I actually saw such in WZ Creators Official WZ 2100 bbs not only as a fan but also as a Mod and part of Admin of those bbs which had tens of thousands of members, hundreds of posts and active members daily and as diverse a fan base as you can imagine.

Anybody who is still around who experienced those Pumpkin Studios WZ bbs can attest to thier robustness and magic. We had disagreements, HUGE disagreements too that make this pale in comparison, but we worked it out through mutual respect and caring for the game's future..... and the robustness and magic continued unabated... even long after the demise of Pumpkin Studios. :3

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cybersphinx
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by cybersphinx » 16 Jul 2012, 22:16

Paul wrote:You have moderator powers so why is this thread still here?
Because I don't see myself as a moderator in the "guiding of/interfering in discussions" sense. I do use my powers to do some menial tasks like deleting spammers and approving new users' posts, seldom much else.
We want information... information... information.

iap
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by iap » 16 Jul 2012, 22:50

Just something to think about: In another community I saw, the general discussion thread was full with political debates. People from all over the world with extreme verity of POVs and a lot of passion to prove that their political POV is the correct one. Of course alongside threads like your favorite movie and stuff. And there were no problems. That was an art community. The mods there knew exactly the balance.

This is not for saying that mods here don't, because I never personally got hurt by one of the mods here...

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Giani
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Giani » 16 Jul 2012, 22:50

iap wrote:Just something to think about: In another community I saw, the general discussion thread was full with political debates. People from all over the world with extreme verity of POVs and a lot of passion to prove that their political POV is the correct one. Of course alongside threads like your favorite movie and stuff. And there were no problems. That was an art community....
I saw that in the Minecraft forum too. I think it is like a way to make publicity.(?) :hmm: Anyway, this is off-topic.
My maps: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9501

Per
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Per » 16 Jul 2012, 23:42

zydonk - an explanation of the closing of the world tournament thread was given. You do not have to agree with it, but you still have to follow the rules. You have stated your opinion, and nobody seems eager to change theirs, so there is nothing left to do. I'm leaving this topic as it is, but I encourage people to wind this up, and don't even think of starting any new threads on this topic.

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Rman Virgil
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Rman Virgil » 17 Jul 2012, 00:00

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I have nothing more constructive to add to the discussion.

I appreciate the opportunity to engage with civility and reason a topic of complexity that inherently triggers sharp sensibilities. I'm always learning, even with this subject which I've engaged in RL for over 4 decades. :hmm:

Time to shift focus onto making stuff that enchants. :) When all is said and done, that's the real prize. :3 For me anyway.
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Shadow Wolf TJC
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 17 Jul 2012, 01:07

I'm unwilling to take sides in this, though I hope that everyone on both sides will come to a common understanding of things.
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Founder of Wikizone 2100: http://wikizone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Wikizone_2100

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Iluvalar
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Iluvalar » 17 Jul 2012, 06:41

Per wrote:zydonk - an explanation of the closing of the world tournament thread was given.
Could you recall us the thread where that explanation was given please ? I dont remember seeing any rationnal explanation from the staff. But I might as well just missed it.
Per wrote:I'm leaving this topic as it is.
Hallelujah ! That's all we ask for 8)
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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Per » 17 Jul 2012, 08:57

Iluvalar wrote:
Per wrote:zydonk - an explanation of the closing of the world tournament thread was given.
Could you recall us the thread where that explanation was given please ? I dont remember seeing any rationnal explanation from the staff. But I might as well just missed it.
It is gone now. Done is done. Let's move on.

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by zydonk » 17 Jul 2012, 12:20

What really annoyed me was the "Cease and desist!" (is that some kind of military command?) shout that signalled the closing of the discussion about the suspending of the World Tournament topic. This is the most civilized forum I have been on and there is absolutely no justification for that kind of attitude among us.

I would leave a detestable forum, but I won't leave this one without making some kind of stand. So, moderator(s), try to trust us...

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Re: Power #4 Paranoia

Post by Iluvalar » 17 Jul 2012, 16:31

Per wrote: It is gone now. Done is done. Let's move on.
So nothing wrong that deserve an explanation happened in that topic ? Where is the spirit of that rule 9 that ask moderator to strike but not remove things and to leave a comment in red ?

I'm sorry, but if you are too ashamed of what you did to explain what happened, here or anywhere, it's a sign that the staff did something wrong. Why hidding it otherwise ?

I'm here on behalf of the freedom of speech. I want a public unbiased explanation on what happened. We are an open-source community. Why the h*** would you retain some informations ?
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