armor increases senseless !!

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meeso
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armor increases senseless !!

Post by meeso » 09 Jul 2011, 17:39

HP increased:
* Leopard 85 → 107
* Panther 145 → 193
* Tiger 225 → 284

i'm not quite sure how you got to that exactly, but how could you increase these without increasing cyborg armor as well?!! the game is upside down now (for someone who likes to use cyborgs more). Also, try at least to aim at a more stable and enduring balance equations regarding weapons damage and armor resistance, the game keeps changing making it more and more difficult for beginners to adapt, and the changes seem to be increasingly haphazard rather than sense-making!! when i first came here you were actually switching off armor calculation altogether and machine-gun rushes were everyone's strategy .. lol

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effigy
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Re: armor increases senseless !!

Post by effigy » 09 Jul 2011, 18:46

The lack of armor was a bug, not a feature.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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NoQ
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Re: armor increases senseless !!

Post by NoQ » 09 Jul 2011, 20:30

This change makes perfect sense to me; green bodies were unusable before, and even now i'm not sure they are. This doesn't make it difficult for beginners because campaign balance *cannot* have anything to do with multiplayer balance anyway, and there's no place beginners could have learned about the old balance. The only problem is when people play this game from time to time and don't read changelogs. But, well, they should read changelogs.

Anyway, people are not idiots down there; they're actually trying to make the game better, and they're pretty successful in it. Try to understand ;)

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kracker
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Re: armor increases senseless !!

Post by kracker » 10 Jul 2011, 03:57

NoQ wrote:This change makes perfect sense to me; green bodies were unusable before, and even now i'm not sure they are. This doesn't make it difficult for beginners because campaign balance *cannot* have anything to do with multiplayer balance anyway, and there's no place beginners could have learned about the old balance. The only problem is when people play this game from time to time and don't read changelogs. But, well, they should read changelogs.

Anyway, people are not idiots down there; they're actually trying to make the game better, and they're pretty successful in it. Try to understand ;)
+1

@meeso: the armor increase isn't senseless, it was not worth it to make collective bodies because they (in the long run) were were under powered not worth it.
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meeso
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Re: armor increases senseless !!

Post by meeso » 10 Jul 2011, 10:49

senseless is not to mean BAD!!

i'm sayaing changes like these need to be considered in relation to the entire context of the game. non of you has given any response regarding the CYBORG armor which is my basic point. the changes are senseless because they jeopardize the context, cyborg is now much weaker than before, because no changes have occurred in its armor that makes it at least equally effective against heavier bodies with increased armor. it takes a lot now to strike one such heavy body with tens of cyborgs with upgraded cannons for example. and they will die quickly now as the heavy turret, even if firing rockets at them, is not being destroyed and often goes back to repair eventually before it is destroyed.

regarding beginners; i am always really curious about introducing this game to many people. it's amazing how even younger generations are sometimes really interested in it. not all beginners are interested in the campaigns. some find the enjoyment only in multiplayer games. i was like that when i was a beginner myself :)

it is indeed a complex game; that's why i keep saying, try to make changes more durable and sensible to the entire context of the game so that it is not so frustrating to keep up with regarding beginners. (before i start this thread i had just kicked the ass of a friend who hadn't played in a long time, his last game was when no armor calculation was involved .. lol .. he vowed never to play this "stupid" game again although i had already told him before we start that armor calculation is back on and that he'd better refrain from machine-guns completely and consider cannons, rockets, etc. and body upgrades!!)

for me it's easy, i can simply make new calculations (weapons damage/armor resistance) and device a new strategy to conquer all of you :) hahah .. just kidding :)

while we're at it, i still think the guide needs a lot of work. it's confusing even to me now sometimes :)

of course, as always and in any case, thanks a lot for all the volunteers who keep working on this wondrful game ;)

enjoy,
m.

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NoQ
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Re: armor increases senseless !!

Post by NoQ » 10 Jul 2011, 14:34

non of you has given any response regarding the CYBORG armor which is my basic point. the changes are senseless because they jeopardize the context, cyborg is now much weaker than before, because no changes have occurred in its armor that makes it at least equally effective against heavier bodies with increased armor. it takes a lot now to strike one such heavy body with tens of cyborgs with upgraded cannons for example. and they will die quickly now as the heavy turret, even if firing rockets at them, is not being destroyed and often goes back to repair eventually before it is destroyed.
This only proves that pure cyborg strategy is bad. Well, it is bad even without using green bodies at all; it's not bodies that make it bad, but the very existence of AP weapons. Balance is not when you can win with *any* strategy. But when green bodies are now good at least for *something*, that's closer to balance.

If you're talking about playing with AIs who tend to do a lot of green heavy tanks, well, by the time AI gets there you should be having scourge borgs that will never be fired at.

Your argument about repairing is totally strange. The heavy body is just too slow to run away from cyborgs (well, any body is), and cyborgs, apart from being faster, also never get stuck (because they're smaller), so they retreat easily and effectively. In fact, the best thing about borg strategy is that you can often get enough upgrades to make your borgs really unkillable.

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Re: armor increases senseless !!

Post by Iluvalar » 10 Jul 2011, 18:55

I dont agree with those changes too ! It still favor the heavy bodies vs the light one ! But... welll at least it's 100% consistant with the grey bodies.
meeso wrote: and the changes seem to be increasingly haphazard rather than sense-making!!
That's the whole tech tree that is more or less random. We all learned it and we make sens out of it but it's totally random and extremely hard to adjust whatever we do. I'll propose the result of my autobalance mod as a balance for 2.3.9.

I agree with you about the borgs... end games borgs are useless crap. For the amount of energy you spent in that they should be at least decent for some time.
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meeso
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Re: armor increases senseless !!

Post by meeso » 11 Jul 2011, 08:47

i haven't done accurate calculations; but one heavy cannon on a leopard shoots once killing or drastically damaging 3 to 4 borgs, and depending on the situation, if the borgs are stuck together, more will be killed from one shot. The heavy gunner borgs on the other hand, have really gone through armor and cannon upgrades, and they are shooting at the thing in really great number; well, let's say 20 of them. if you set them to go back to repair at medium damage, they will all flee before the leopard's health bar turns red. as you say, when you calculate amount of energy spent on research and manufacturing of borgs and all their armor and weapon upgrades; i think it will be much more than what you spend on getting that one leopard and its heavy cannon. For me, 20 upgraded cyborgs should at least be a lot more dangerous to one approaching turret, regardless of its body.

NoQ, you're missing something here; there is no such thing as pure cyborg strategy is ineffective. this depends on the map and the oil in it, and many other things as you know :) i will use cyborgs heavily during the initial and middle phases of the game, and will do upgrade them as much as i can. depending on the skill of my opponent, i will loose 1/3 to 2/3 of them eventually, but will have more power to manufacture now heavy bodies in sufficient numbers to occupy key territory. this is end-game as Iluvalar names it (chess terminology) ;) cyborgs will still be there maneuvering now here and there and driving the enemy crazy. so try to be understanding eh? ;)

now i'm trying in other directions; testing with the scourge cyborgs who will bring all these bodies down, but will be destroyed by other flamer or gunner cyborgs. variety of weaponry is a lovely thing to do, but unfortuantely WZ research system and the costs of weapons and their upgrades prevents one from doing that. i read here before someone who provided the developers with a whole different research system scheme, in terms of costs, that would have rendered this game unbelievably interesting. in that scheme you'd have been able to research weapons more cheaply and thus have greater variety and capacity of selection. At the moment, whenever i do that i loose, because instead of upgrading a certain weapon (or maximum two weapons), i waste power and time researching other weapons. i also observed that whenever an opponent does this, i kill him easily. it's simply not working.

cheers,

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Re: armor increases senseless !!

Post by meeso » 11 Jul 2011, 08:49

and, NoQ, you don't have to build your repair facility in the deserts, you can build them right in the battle field where they belong!! :lecture:

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