Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

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icyflames
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Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by icyflames » 28 Dec 2010, 03:03

the worst thing to have ever happened to any RTS game... no?

After my first few games in the new lobby (which to my surprise is awesomely well-populated), I've realised that most people playing wz play these ridiculous high-oil, flat, anti-rush maps. I hate them so much, just like I hated playing 'mods' on C&C Tiberian Sun (basically meant unlimited resources and faster building etc.). It removes a HUGE aspect of the game: acquiring, protecting and managing resources. What then is left? A bit of shallow knowledge of what works in terms of balance, and lots of micromanaging... I just hope that game balancing isn't done on the basis of unlimited resources.......

Now, I know I can't make people like low-oil, so this is really just a rant.

/rant over.

zamaszysty
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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by zamaszysty » 28 Dec 2010, 03:09

You can always make a map with no resources at the base, only in the middle of the battlefield ... constant fight for those and often destroyed pumps would make a BIT of what You like in RTS games ;)

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Zombie » 28 Dec 2010, 04:07

all I have to say about unlimited resource matches is that they're pretty noob friendly

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by NoQ » 28 Dec 2010, 08:59

Don't be decieved, icyflames (: hi-power games are popular, but there are a lot of people who hate them much like you do. hi-power games are some sort of an madness of all RTS games, actually (: When you come to IRC, it's not that hard to arrange a "normal" game there. We also have an unofficial "league", where we play games for ratings, and we play only normal low-power games on canonically-designed maps there.

Still, i play high-power games from time to time as well, because they are just a different way of playing with different balance, and they are still fair, so there is something to learn there as well.

Also, here is my naive "essay" ... That's the moment when i realized something (:

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by themousemaster » 29 Dec 2010, 22:56

icyflames wrote:the worst thing to have ever happened to any RTS game... no?

After my first few games in the new lobby (which to my surprise is awesomely well-populated), I've realised that most people playing wz play these ridiculous high-oil, flat, anti-rush maps. I hate them so much, just like I hated playing 'mods' on C&C Tiberian Sun (basically meant unlimited resources and faster building etc.). It removes a HUGE aspect of the game: acquiring, protecting and managing resources. What then is left? A bit of shallow knowledge of what works in terms of balance, and lots of micromanaging... I just hope that game balancing isn't done on the basis of unlimited resources.......

Now, I know I can't make people like low-oil, so this is really just a rant.

/rant over.


NOTE: I do not like "high power" (infinite resource, or anything similar) RTS games. So don't take this as a rebuttal to your post, just clarification.



That said, why is it always that <object of rant> is "ridiculous", <contrary examples to my point> are "shallow", and anyone who believes otherwise is "removing a huge aspect" of something?

That's like saying Football should remove Sudden Death Overtime because it removes the "strategy of clock mangement". All it does is replace one strategy (that of careful resource management, which in Real Life terms might be called the "Grand Battleplan Doctrine of Warfare"), with another (that of overwhelming instant force, which in Real Life terms might be called the "Blitzkreig Doctrine of Warfare").

If 90% of people who like game X like it to be like Y, why would said game then be desirable to be designed to be NOT-Y? If the game wasn't supposed to be like Y in the first place, then there wouldn't be such PRO-Y favoritism, as PRO-Y type people wouldn't have liked it enough in the first place to form a 9/10 majority.




To quell your fears; no, game balance is not decided by "high oil" maps. IIRC, the standard of "balance management" is a 4-derrick main base, 2 derricks in close proximity, and then XXX more scattered around the map based on it's size; I.E. the general layout of Pumpkin's original MP maps.

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Zombie » 30 Dec 2010, 13:46

To be honest the lack of resources in low resource matches gives a depth of real tactical thought to the game. It really brings out how well people can think about the risks and rewards of what they're doing. In my personal opinion, if someone is good at the low-resource matches, they should definitely be up to par on the unlimited resource (if not win), but the same cannot be said for those who play unlimited resource matches going back to low-oil maps.

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Defacto » 03 Jan 2011, 20:50

I tought that Max oil maps was awesome... until i played a game on low oil with 4 other players. We agreed not to mass, and not to rush. It was awesome... after a few games, we decided to not even attack without reason, and so we started roleplaying and using diplomacy... it was awesome!

Since then, i have been looking for low or mid-oil games in the lobby, without finding any...
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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by lav_coyote25 » 04 Jan 2011, 06:08

Defacto wrote:I tought that Max oil maps was awesome... until i played a game on low oil with 4 other players. We agreed not to mass, and not to rush. It was awesome... after a few games, we decided to not even attack without reason, and so we started roleplaying and using diplomacy... it was awesome!

Since then, i have been looking for low or mid-oil games in the lobby, without finding any...
so how many resource wells you looking for?

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Defacto » 04 Jan 2011, 12:24

lav_coyote25 wrote:
Defacto wrote:I tought that Max oil maps was awesome... until i played a game on low oil with 4 other players. We agreed not to mass, and not to rush. It was awesome... after a few games, we decided to not even attack without reason, and so we started roleplaying and using diplomacy... it was awesome!

Since then, i have been looking for low or mid-oil games in the lobby, without finding any...
so how many resource wells you looking for?
Well, a low-oil for me is 2 wells in base, 2 just outside, and a majority in the mittle sector...

A standard game (4 in base, 2 just outside the gates, 2 closer to the mittle but near your base, and the rest in the mittle sector) is also fun to roleplay on though, but if your enemies are narbs that don't RP, they'll just mass up and blast you, which i much harder on low oil.
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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Eternal » 07 Jan 2011, 09:09

it depends on your play style I think, I tend not to go out and capture resources, so I prefer playing on maps where all the oil is in the base area, or at least close to it.

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Axel » 07 Jan 2011, 14:50

In my experience, in low oil games, money cheating (easiet cheating) has become awfull!! I seen that often... May be in most low oil games i play!... :(( and i have now Negative experience!! :(( (do not think That i dont know what i talking about... i plays online about 2 years) In High oil game money cheating do not give so many Advantages!!!

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Chojun » 08 Jan 2011, 23:54

Warzone 'suffers' from turtling issues because of the nature of resources in the game and the all-powerful hardcrete. There is also balancing issues when it comes to power limits/avaiability/etc. The issue is compounded greatly when a player has 6 or more oil wells within a fortifiable area near their base.

In the wz2200 project I implemented some new features that crippled certain aspects of power and greatly increased the strategic importance of power stations. It helped to balance turtling with rushing/etc but was very unpopular with some of the members who ONLY liked to turtle.

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Per » 09 Jan 2011, 01:20

You can't please everyone. Chojun, can you say some more about what you did to the power system in regards to balancing?

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by Rman Virgil » 09 Jan 2011, 02:20

Chojun wrote:..............

In the wz2200 project I implemented some new features that crippled certain aspects of power and greatly increased the strategic importance of power stations. It helped to balance turtling with rushing/etc but was very unpopular with some of the members who ONLY liked to turtle.
How I remember it's first iteration was that it slowed down the game such that you felt you were waiting around inordinate amounts of time to be able to do anything so that it was more frustrating than fun. That said, in all fairness, it was an Alpha iteration and really didn't have an opportunity to go through extensive MP testing for re-balancing (or tweaking) the changes you made to deal with the aforementioned "slow-down". Also, you may have made changes to an iteration I didn't play. Then there is, as well, the fact that it went sharply against an established habit of play so that it called for a re-learning of one of the very basic mechanics of the game which would inherently invoke a resistance to what felt "abnormal", for lack of a better word. Anyway that's my memory - which could certainly be flawed or circumscribed as suggested. :3

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Re: Unlimited resources (hi-power)....

Post by abbas12 » 09 Jan 2011, 03:25

in starcraft bw, to expand ("expo") you need to spend 300-400 minerals, the cost of 6-8 basic terran marines. the first expo naerly doubles the player's resource income, however. the huge profits one reaps from expos is balanced by the high cost. in warzone, turtling isnt a huuuuge problem, but it can be if a map is poorly designed (cough cough ntw cough). from what i haev read, many agree that the max that should exist in an enclosed "base" is 4 dericks. perhaps something like "derrick upgrades" like derrick modules could be made available for high cost that strengthen a derick and make it act as 2 or even 3 derricks. then one can solidify forward derricks and strenghthen them against opponents OR hunker down in ones own base.

turtling can make for interesting games.. shouldnt be all about turtle but shouldnt be all about rush rush rush either....

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