Transports in MP - Creating New Models, GPMs, UI & SFX ?

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cybersphinx
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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by cybersphinx » 25 Nov 2010, 16:05

My plans for 2.3 only include fixes. I'm not opposed to having it in 2.3 if someone backports it, though its current implementation seems to need some work still, and I'd prefer to only include finished things.

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Rman Virgil
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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 25 Nov 2010, 16:17

Rman Virgil wrote:.

Asked elsewhere but buried in a broader topic. Here it is focused tightly, I think, & thus the recap.
cybersphinx Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:51 am wrote:......

2.3.6 will be released soon, see https://github.com/Warzone2100/warzone2 ... /ChangeLog for the changes so far.

......
Rman Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:53 am wrote:
As I recall only v.3.x was gonna have MP Super Transport support.

Could it be included in v.2.3.6 for those who would pass-on the new terrain renderer for various legit reasons ?

- RV :hmm:
cybersphinx wrote:My plans for 2.3 only include fixes. I'm not opposed to having it in 2.3 if someone backports it, though its current implementation seems to need some work still, and I'd prefer to only include finished things.
Thanks for the quick response. Your proviso makes sense.

- RV :hmm:

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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by Buginator » 27 Nov 2010, 09:03

Hold that thought... :hmm:
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mynameismethos
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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by mynameismethos » 28 Nov 2010, 12:42

well a way i could improve it is by making it a little bit more faster a little more spacious , i was playing a game the last 20 minutes and it seems that is slower compared to the cyborg transport idk :hmm:
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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by effigy » 29 Nov 2010, 03:12

Buginator wrote:I'll come back to this at a later point, I just skimmed some messages, and I just wanted to say that having 10 units as the limit is only because the UI don't support anything higher than 10 right now. I haven't had time to fix this... the plan was to have multiple transports that can hold different amount of units.

If anyone wants to fix the UI, that would save loads of time... :3
Darn :( I had assumed the template for the build/research menu was the same.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Rman Virgil
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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 29 Nov 2010, 16:16

Buginator wrote:I'll come back to this at a later point, I just skimmed some messages, and I just wanted to say that having 10 units as the limit is only because the UI don't support anything higher than 10 right now. I haven't had time to fix this... the plan was to have multiple transports that can hold different amount of units.

If anyone wants to fix the UI, that would save loads of time... :3
A suggested approach -


10 Tanks as the upper limit is just fine, I think, for the CAM Transport. Bumping up the speed some of this CAM Transport looks to be the common thread here. KISS.

Keeping the Borg Transport at 10 Borgs is fine. KISS.

Adding a 3rd Transport Type sounds promising - and ambitious enough on the evolutionary continuum for WZ. What parameters ? I think perhaps a payload trade-off for speed. Again a 10 unit limit but a mix: 5 tanks max / 5 Borgs max. KISS. Speed faster than the CAM Transport and slower the Borg Transport.

UI changes - none, for now anyway. KISS.

Within that simply presented matrix of 3 differentiated transports (and no UI changes) there is significant complexity of a Janus nature: it expands tac-strat GP in interesting ways but also places demands on finding an optimal integration balance. Thought experiments will be of limted utility. Ultimately, implementations to play test extensively will really be the only way to get at that optimal state within the complete, and dynamic, GP complex.

Just some practical suggestions to throw in the mix and move critical insight forward. I have only touched upon 2 balance factors - obviously there are others that should come to the fore because they are, in totality, inter-locking. So - have at it. :wink:

Oh, yes, then there is a likely proliferation of dominant water maps - at least for MP. 'Course we already have SKI AI scripting that makes use of Tank Transport Drops courtesy of Troman's creativity. :D

- RV :hmm:
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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by Buginator » 30 Nov 2010, 06:35

BTW, I guess 2.3.x isn't as dead as I thought it was going to be, so it still is possible to stick this in 2.3.x.

Again, sorry for the terse response, but I am rather pressed for time. I'll come back to this again in a few days. :stressed:
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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 30 Nov 2010, 18:50

Buginator wrote:BTW, I guess 2.3.x isn't as dead as I thought it was going to be, so it still is possible to stick this in 2.3.x.

Again, sorry for the terse response, but I am rather pressed for time. I'll come back to this again in a few days. :stressed:
We're just aggregating stuff for you here Buggy so when ever you can get to it it'll all be in one convenient place for you to review and evaluate the value of. Having very limited time for working on WZ is something we can understand thoroughly. We're just grateful that when you have some time, you have a passion to do the fine work that you've been doing for years now. Your amicable communications skills are also deeply appreciated. That's a combo worthy of emulating in my book. :3 Too rare, really, bald-faced truth dared to be uttered. :ninja:

- Regards, RV :hmm:

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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by Buginator » 06 Dec 2010, 00:54

For the speed, just how much faster we talking about ?

The more transports that are added, it would also be nice to have different sounds for each of them. Not quite sure how to pull that off.

BTW, for the UI stuff, I might just shrink the size of the buttons down, and fit more of them on panel.
That could work. :hmm:
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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by lav_coyote25 » 06 Dec 2010, 07:29

speed wise.... the cyborg transport is a speed demon. the super transport should be almost but not quite the same speed.

scale of 1 to 10 = 10 for the cyborg transport.
scale of 1 to 10 = 7 for the super transport ( now if you want , for the 10 trucks = 7 speed.) ( for any combinations other than trucks it could be as slow as 5, but not any slower than... if your hauling say 5 super heavy tanks and 5 super cyborgs, well logic dictates that the speed would not be as fast as say 5 light body units and 5 standard cyborg bodies. or for those that wants the adventure, say 100 scavengers on board the supertransport and able to do 7 on the scale... just thinking outloud now...) :3 :D :hmm:

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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 06 Dec 2010, 17:49

.

Trying to understand this situation from a modders PoV... so here are some under the hood details.

Some STAT Refs:

Vengeance - Engine = 23000, _ Type = Heavy, _ Weight = 2500


Cyborg Transport - Engine = 2000, _ Type = Medium, _ Weight = 250


From Campaign:

Super Transport - Engine = 2000, _ Type = Super Heavy, _ Weight = 150


Key:

Engine = "may affect droid speed"

Weight = "may affect droid speed"


What should these STATS be altered to in v.3.x to optimize the speed-up:

For the Super Transport in MP Mode:

Engine = ?

Weight = ?

You can see that the Super Transport in Campaign Mode is actually a tad faster than the Cyborg Transport in MP Mode and WHY (it's actually lighter by 100 points !). 'Course that won't do.

It's too slow now so does that mean the weight was upped too far and power out-put left the same ?

The Super Transport should weigh more, but it should also have a greater power out-put than the Cyborg Transport. Makes sense. But what's the best ratio ?

Someone wanna post those v. 3.0-Beta 4 stats for the Super Transport in MP Mode that are resulting in it being too slow. (Don't have access myself right now to v. 3.0-Beta 4 .... only v.2.3.6)

NOTE: I'm making the assumption that these are the primary variables Buggy is working with. I could be wrong. There could be others. I dunno really. The transports are clearly "LIFT" but since they are not designable like Vtols I do not know how or if the Vtol speed calcs apply...(I did read through the Transport source code but I couldn't tell for sure. I wanna say the Vtol speed calcs do NOT apply 'cause I didn't catch any refs to 'em - but then again I have no proficiency with WZ's code to speak of so I could have missed it in my mind-numbing read through. :P )

- RV :hmm:
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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 07 Dec 2010, 16:10

.

* BUMP *

The 3.0-Beta 4 Super Transport stats (ie., "weight" & "power out-put") are sine qua non to going forward here it looks like.

Anyone DLed already that can look for those #s ?

Or confirm, one way or another, whether Vtol speed calcs apply to the ST ?

Can't run it through my work VPN & LT. My option is to wait till the weekend when I get back home to look 'em up which is fine though I will have to understandably bow-out here till then.

- RV 8)

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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by effigy » 07 Dec 2010, 16:47

v3.0 wrote: bodyName = MP-SuperTransportBody
size = HEAVY
buildPower = 500
buildPoints = 1000
weight = 1850
bodyPoints = 1000
systemPoints = 100
powerOutput = 6100
v3.0 wrote: bodyName = TransporterBody
size = MEDIUM
buildPower = 325
buildPoints = 637
weight = 250
bodyPoints = 200
systemPoints = 100
powerOutput = 2000
edit: typo
Last edited by effigy on 07 Dec 2010, 22:31, edited 1 time in total.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 07 Dec 2010, 17:21

.

Thanks, effigy. :)

Wow, that's a differential spread. And the ratio is quite changed too. I don't understand the "Type" change, though. :hmm:

You indicate both as "3.0" but I am assuming that the type "Heavy" or the upper set of stats are the most current ?

Anyway, the choice seems to reside in either lowering the weight or increasing the engine output, pushing the ratio in the direction of CAM stats but not all the way for reasons already mentioned.

The Body "TYPE" change makes me wonder if that too is an influential variable on top of the raw stats ? I dunno.

I am gonna go on the limb and guess that either lowing the weight 1 order of magnitude (or increasing the power output one order of magnitude ratio-wise) and then tesing in game would be the way to proceed from here.

Or to give it numbers - go from weight = 1850 to 1250 OR from powerOutput = 6100 to 8100 as a first iteration change.

But again.... I am still not sure about the Body "Type" implication OR if Vtol speed calcs factor-in.

- RV 8)

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Re: Experiencing the Super Transport - Ways to Improve ?

Post by effigy » 07 Dec 2010, 22:30

Oh dear, it seems I made a typo: the 2nd body should be "TransporterBody" not "MP-SuperTransportBody". I think that makes it the Cyborg Transport.

Also, I think the "type" is just an indication of how many modules you need on the factory to produce it.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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