Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

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density
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by density » 27 Jun 2008, 05:44

Rman Virgil wrote:
What does that mean? How can a videogame be immersive?
* In the same way as looking at little black squiggles on paper - a well written novel.

* Or sitting on your arse in a dark auditorium, with hundreds of other peeps, gaping at bigger than life projected images.

* Or sitting across a Chess board, facing an opponent of equal measure, playing at tournament level.

* Or looking at a provocative magazine photo and engaging Mary Palmer in your brain's imaginings.

* That enough or were you indeed being cheeky like you were with Lav's referral about tactics ?

- Regards, Rman ;)
I don't put multiplayer videogames in the same category as novels or movies. I put videogames in the same category as professional sports. Can you really call wanting to get the ball into the net/endzone immersion? Can you do it with a straight face?

Also, you have to be a complete botanist to get "immersed" in chess. Read Kasparov's book and you will see a difference between being immersed and playing a game.

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Rman Virgil
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by Rman Virgil » 27 Jun 2008, 07:17

I don't put multiplayer videogames in the same category as novels or movies. I put videogames in the same category as professional sports. Can you really call wanting to get the ball into the net/endzone immersion? Can you do it with a straight face?
* Absolutely can say it with straight face based on the subjective experience of playing several sports most of my life (& pretty good at 'em) plus enough objective evidence to fill a Jumbo Jet Airliner repair hanger... or in electronic form, gigs of HD space.
Also, you have to be a complete botanist to get "immersed" in chess. Read Kasparov's book and you will see a difference between being immersed and playing a game.
* "Botanist" ? Ridiculous. I grew-up playing competitive tournament chess. I've already read Kasparov..... and Emanuel Lasker and Alexander Alekhine and Bobby Fisher and José Raúl Capablanca (whom I most closely identify with in style and temperament of play) and all the scientific works of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi published over the last several decades relevant to this subject and.... well, you get the drift.

* Hey, I have a very short Game Design Reading list for ya (many by pros in the industry) that completely renders your position something of a minority of one - you alone.

* Man, Play and Games
** by Roger Caillois

* Level Design for Games: Creating Compelling Game Experiences
** by Phil Co

* Ultimate Game Design: Building Game Worlds
** by Tom Meigs

* First Person: New Media as Story, Perfomance and Game
** Ed. by Noah Wardrip-Fruin & Pat Harrigan

* The Game Design Reader: A Rules of Play Anthology
** Ed. By Katie Salen & Eric Zimmerman

* Game Development Essentials: Gameplay Mechanics
** by Troy Dunniway & Jeannie Novak

* Designing Virtual Worlds
**Richard Bartle

* Game Design Workshop: Designing, Prototyping, and Playtesting Games
** by Tracy Fullerton

* Rules of Play: Game Design Fundamentals
** by Katie Salen & Eric Zimmerman

* Chris Crawford On Interactive Storytelling
** Chris Crawford

* Creating Emotion in Games
** by David Freeman

* Finite and Infinite Games
** by James P. Carse

* Cinematic Storytelling
** by Jennifer van Sijll

* Visual Storytelling: The Art and Technique
** by Tony C. Caputo, Harlan Ellison & Jim STERANKO

* Unit Operations
** by Ian Bogost

* Half-Real: Video Games Between Real Rules and Fictional Worlds
** by Jesper Juul

* Persuasive Games
** by Ian Bogost

* Twisty Little Passages
** by Nick Montfort

* Game Design Workshop: Designing, Prototyping, and Playtesting Games
** by Tracy Fullerton

* Gamer Theory
** by McKenzie Wark

* Rules of Play Game Design Reader / Anthology
** by Katie Salen & Eric Zimmerman

* Second Person: RP and Story in Games and Playable Media
** ed. by Pat Harington and Noah Wardrip-Fruin

* Character Development and Storytelling for Games
** by Lee Sheldon

* When (and if) you can even find some substantive objective evidence to support your position then we can engage beyond the unsubstantiated declarations of a rank tyro, which have zero traction I hardly regret to inform you.

* Good luck with your education.

- Regards, Rman :)
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lav_coyote25
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by lav_coyote25 » 27 Jun 2008, 07:36

perhaps some people dont get that into the game... oh well their loss. xD

doom3r
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by doom3r » 27 Jun 2008, 13:18

What do you mean by player vs player balancing?
I mean that in warzone there's an obviously perfect balancing between which units a player can have and which is enemy can use, because there's simply only one playable faction. The unbalancing comes with the analysis of every weapon or research in general, lots of the weapon will prove useless against another over-powered weapon (like Lancers in previous versions, you can kill everything with those, although now are not as powerful as they was).

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by Chojun » 27 Jun 2008, 18:14

density wrote:I don't put multiplayer videogames in the same category as novels or movies. I put videogames in the same category as professional sports. Can you really call wanting to get the ball into the net/endzone immersion? Can you do it with a straight face?

Also, you have to be a complete botanist to get "immersed" in chess. Read Kasparov's book and you will see a difference between being immersed and playing a game.
Clearly you share the minority opinion compared with the rest of the world.

Mental immersion is one of the most important aspects of human cognition and if one is incapable of being "immersed" in any task, they are incapable of mastering that task.

themousemaster
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by themousemaster » 27 Jun 2008, 20:14

Chojun wrote:
Mental immersion is one of the most important aspects of human cognition and if one is incapable of being "immersed" in any task, they are incapable of mastering that task.
I disagree with this statement here ;p.

density
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by density » 27 Jun 2008, 21:21

Chojun wrote:Clearly you share the minority opinion compared with the rest of the world.
I'd prefer to take a look at the statistics you are keeping to yourself.
Mental immersion is one of the most important aspects of human cognition and if one is incapable of being "immersed" in any task, they are incapable of mastering that task.
Negative. Being immersed gets in the way of rational thought. If you look at the big picture and say I need to produce 4 lurkers and 2 more sunkens or I will get rolled in 1 minute and won't get my $10,000. If you're immersed you go "oooh, hydralisks, pretty!" As far as I understand. "I need to watch it shoot green stuff!"
* "Botanist" ? Ridiculous. I grew-up playing competitive tournament chess. I've already read Kasparov..... and Emanuel Lasker and Alexander Alekhine and Bobby Fisher and José Raúl Capablanca (whom I most closely identify with in style and temperament of play) and all the scientific works of Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi published over the last several decades relevant to this subject and.... well, you get the drift.
Kasparov looks at chess in a very utilitarian way and has a very strict definition of a loser. Don't let yourself be distracted by trivial things and focus on winning.
* Hey, I have a very short Game Design Reading list for ya (many by pros in the industry) that completely renders your position something of a minority of one - you alone.
Who are these pros you are talking about? Are these the same pros that churn out video games I don't even want to look at on a weekly basis?

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by Ursa » 27 Jun 2008, 21:26

I don't think you two have the same definition of immersion. Unless you come up with an equivalent, your arguments will make no rational sense to each other.

You're not playing by the same rules so to speak.

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Rman Virgil
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by Rman Virgil » 27 Jun 2008, 21:39

I don't think you two have the same definition of immersion. Unless you come up with an equivalent, your arguments will make no rational sense to each other.

You're not playing by the same rules so to speak.

* Very perceptive Ursa. You've hit the bulls-eye. :)

* I am using the primary etymological definition of the word "immersion" from the Oxford Unabridged dictionary of the English language.

* What definition Density and the Mousemaster have conjured in their heads is clearly incongruent with the objective vernacular.

* I might as well be making ludicrous statements like -

* "I firmly believe, contrary to overwhelming objective evidence, that baby elephants born with unusually large ear flaps have the capacity for flight but are only prevented from going airborne because they have an instinctive fear of heights,...."

- Regards, Rman :D
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themousemaster
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by themousemaster » 27 Jun 2008, 22:25

Rman Virgil wrote:

* What definition Density and the Mousemaster have conjured in their heads is clearly incongruent with the objective vernacular.
I would just like to state that I don't want to be lumped in with Density on this. A quick check of his posting history indicates that he is an ego-inflated argumentative attention-grabber, who should go back tot he WoW general forums. :P


As far as my statement though, I was just pointing out that you can master something without being immersed in it, per se, as indicated by anyone who is able to flawlessly execute 2 separate things at once (I can run off answers to Histograms while simultaneously playing Diablo2 and not missing an item drop, for example). My attention thus being divided, I am not "completely immersed" in either.


Now, if that sentence was supposed to be along the lines of "you cannot enjoy something as much that you are not completely immersed in", I'll believe that, as I cannot enjoy Diablo or Histograms as much individually while doing both at once.

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by Rman Virgil » 27 Jun 2008, 22:59

-------------->

* My sincere apology themousemaster.

* Your example makes perfect sense.

* The keyword in Chojun's statement is "mastery" - for me anyways.

* Which is to say to attain mediocrity in any discipline does not require the "immersion" we speak of. Imitation or copying others, in a quite rational way, will do for that.

* But mastery at an exceptional level requires the type of immersion that in the sports world results at its zenith in what is called "being in the zone".... which is an exhilarating state to be in on top of having attained the masterful results. "Being in the Zone" can also be attained out of any domain of human endeavor. The nomenclature in the science of psychology is experiential "flow".

* In the game world it is fictive, rule-bound, constructs so compelling that there is engendered a willing suspension of disbelief and a degree of addiction to inhabiting the construct for the sheer invigorating fun of it - and perhaps even a sense of self-worth in some cases by achieving domination within the rules of the construct.

- Regards, Rman :)
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Contrast
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by Chojun » 27 Jun 2008, 23:13

themousemaster wrote:Now, if that sentence was supposed to be along the lines of "you cannot enjoy something as much that you are not completely immersed in", I'll believe that, as I cannot enjoy Diablo or Histograms as much individually while doing both at once.
I think you're assuming that I implied "all tasks require immersion for mastery." Not quite the case, since there has been many a time when I have played that game being about 70% asleep :D ;)

Although the replay value for that game (and similar games) is high, it does not require much thought to play it (as you've already admitted). My 7 year-old plays that game to its fullest so it would be easy to assume that anyone with the developmental capacity of a 7 year-old is capable of mastering the game (I happen to enjoy it but it doesn't tax my brain like other things do, for example Calculus or Programming).

However, some people are not capable of immersion; nor can they master anything. Like this Guy.

If one is incapable of "immersion" then they've met their match in life.

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by EvilGuru » 28 Jun 2008, 00:13

However, some people are not capable of immersion; nor can they master anything. Like this Guy.
I don't know. He seems to have that whole smoking thing down to a tee. Bookmarked!

Regards, Freddie.

density
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by density » 28 Jun 2008, 05:08

themousemaster wrote:A quick check of his posting history indicates that he is an ego-inflated argumentative attention-grabber, who should go back tot he WoW general forums. :P
Troll/flame.

My posting history won't tell you much because all of my posts are in this thread. You should improve your reading comprehension before making any more posts and invest more thought into your half-baked insults.
Rman Virgil wrote:* Which is to say to attain mediocrity in any discipline does not require the "immersion" we speak of. Imitation or copying others, in a quite rational way, will do for that.
* But mastery at an exceptional level requires the type of immersion that in the sports world results at its zenith in what is called "being in the zone".... which is an exhilarating state to be in on top of having attained the masterful results. "Being in the Zone" can also be attained out of any domain of human endeavor. The nomenclature in the science of psychology is experiential "flow".
I have played this Half-Life mod called Natural Selection, if anybody has heard of it. I have reached a level of mastery in that game which has enabled me to win 2 ANSL championships and get into the CAL semifinals prior to that. I've also made a couple of e-friends along the way. The reason I'm taking such a heavy stance against "immersion" is because I have realized something as soon as I started playing to win. I no longer cared about the game I was playing, I only cared about winning in it. So have all of my friends who were even more successful than I was. I could care less about the "character" I was controlling, I could care less about the ambiance of the environment and I could certainly care less about anything that would distract me from exploiting bugs and generally bending the game around my finger as I was playing it.

Many players in that game complained about immersion breaking factors such as "bunnyhopping" and "ghost jumping". In my opinion, removing these aspects would lower the skill threshold. This is what I am arguing against. I hope this made my meaning clearer.
* In the game world it is fictive, rule-bound, constructs so compelling that there is engendered a willing suspension of disbelief and a degree of addiction to inhabiting the construct for the sheer invigorating fun of it - and perhaps even a sense of self-worth in some cases by achieving domination within the rules of the construct.
Nothing in the oxford dictionary even comes close to hinting at a different meaning of immersion for video games vs. immersion in any other case.

Rman, is there a reason for your pompous English major tone?

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by lav_coyote25 » 28 Jun 2008, 10:31

O_o omfg - he called rman a pompous english major ... to know rman is to understand that there are more than your own narrow views on life... and saying such things is sure to start a flame war. so as moderator i caution you to keep it on a friendly footing. please.

and his use of the english language is awesome- maybe one should take a few minutes to evaluate what (we = all members of the community) are saying. or dont... xD

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