Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

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density
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Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by density » 24 Jun 2008, 22:21

Since I started playing starcraft, the interface became unbearable.

What sucks:
- Can't hotkey buidlings, only units
- No way to hotkey unit production (F1 - F12 keys would be cool for selecting units to produce by slot, an even cooler thought would be to require the player to enter a custom hotkey for every unit you design)
- The range of repair vehicles in which they look for hurt units is... lacking

Other than that, its great! :D

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by Chojun » 25 Jun 2008, 00:30

Starcraft in the RTS genre is like the "Backstreet Boys" or "NSync" of the music industry.

Aside from the highly balanced gameplay, vast multiplayer network, and comprehensive map editor, the game really doesn't bring much to the genre (although the aforementioned traits are pretty good milestones).

In my opinion, it and the C&C series are the primary reasons why games like Warzone 2100, which take risks by advancing the genre, go relatively unnoticed while other stale C&C/Starcraft-esque games flood the marketplace.

Oh well :stressed:

density
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by density » 25 Jun 2008, 04:52

Chojun wrote:Starcraft in the RTS genre is like the "Backstreet Boys" or "NSync" of the music industry.

Aside from the highly balanced gameplay, vast multiplayer network, and comprehensive map editor, the game really doesn't bring much to the genre (although the aforementioned traits are pretty good milestones).
Starcraft is the most popular cybersport because of perfect balance. Not just perfect tri-race balance, but also perfect unit balance. Every single unit in that game can be used at any tech level and the devs went a long way to make sure that no unit or spell is left unused. You're also forgetting the fun, original yet not overdone gameplay elements (every unit has a niche and fills it. No other unit for that race can do another unit's job, unlike C&C; Warzone; all other strategy games - small tank; medium tank; big tank; small plane; medium plane; big plane)

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by themousemaster » 25 Jun 2008, 14:19

Chojun wrote:Starcraft in the RTS genre is like the "Backstreet Boys" or "NSync" of the music industry.

Aside from the highly balanced gameplay, vast multiplayer network, and comprehensive map editor, the game really doesn't bring much to the genre (although the aforementioned traits are pretty good milestones).

In my opinion, it and the C&C series are the primary reasons why games like Warzone 2100, which take risks by advancing the genre, go relatively unnoticed while other stale C&C/Starcraft-esque games flood the marketplace.

Oh well :stressed:

I disagree. In my opinion, Blizzard and Westwood/EA are the primary reasons why games like Warzone2100 go unnoticed. People are obsessed with brand names over actual games.

Not that I think SC, WC, or C&C were BAD mind you (RA2 was fun as anything), but I bet you WZ would be right up there in sales with them if it had been released by Blizzard instead of Pumpkin.

ouch
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by ouch » 25 Jun 2008, 21:28

I think it's funny when starcraft fans claim "Perfect" balance. All you have to do is mass produce terran marines and you could win every match. the brood war expansion made it even worse by allowing you to heal the marines.

The interface was just as bad, only 12 units selected at a time? come on, how lame is that? and then the bar with the buttons on it was so huge it took nearly 1/3 of the screen.

The only thing starcraft had going for it was the campiegn, That was pretty good I'll admit.

But the skirmishes are far better in TA or Warzone.

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by density » 25 Jun 2008, 23:13

ouch wrote:I think it's funny when starcraft fans claim "Perfect" balance. All you have to do is mass produce terran marines and you could win every match. the brood war expansion made it even worse by allowing you to heal the marines.
Outright lie.

High Templars, Reavers, Zealots and Dragoons, Goliaths, Lurkers, Ultralisks, Defilers, Queens, etc... can kill 999999999999999999999999 marines in half a second. Try micromanaging that.

If you have any more questions about balance I would like to invite you to a game of 1-1 starcraft, you pick my race and a single unit I'll have to use. (supplemented by peons)
The interface was just as bad, only 12 units selected at a time? come on, how lame is that? and then the bar with the buttons on it was so huge it took nearly 1/3 of the screen.
You're arguing with terminology. Your opponent can also only select 12 units at a time, so how is he winning? Might it have something to do with the number keys? You can technically select 120 units at a time, and trust me - that will NEVER happen. The largest battles that usually happen are between 2-3 sets of units. (12x2, 12x3) A bit more if you're zerg.

The view was pretty zoomed out so 3/4 of your screen wasn't a problem, you could still fit all of the action in one screen. Also, judging by how crappy the unit graphics are, the zoomed out view didn't hurt the game, not that you mind that, do you?

I think warzone fanboys secretly hate starcraft because they blame it for why the game failed, even though the truth lies somewhere in the aging system (PSX), terrible marketing and terrible management in general.

Also, MMMMMMMMMAMOTH TANK. That is the reason why all strategy games that don't include with STAR CRAFT: BROOD WAR in their name suck. You can build a single unit that will win you the game. Try that in star craft, I dare you.

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by doom3r » 26 Jun 2008, 00:49

I just think Blizzard games are a lot more based on multiplayer games and races balancing. That's why I usually think of those games as MMOrts. I used to play Warcraft III and I can say that every race was completely balanced (patches changes had lines and lines of balancing infos), and every unit type could be easly defeated by a specific other unit. There was no specific winning tactic, every of those had its pros and its cons. Yes the campaign was good, with a nice storyline and with stunning FMVs graphics (like in WZ though, at least for those years), but it was in the multiplayer mode where WC3 gave its best. It had rankings, chatrooms, friends and guild system, and non-pinging servers (at least for ranked games). Warzone hadn't got anything of these features, except from balancing, which is, for the lack of differenciated factions, quite good (im talking about player vs player balancing, not weapon vs weapon, cos this one is another story). Warzone was mostly campaign-only based (the ps version hadn't /and couldn't/ have multiplayer, but the game was still great to play).
I played WCIII only because of its good multiplayer mode (lots of players, good rankings, some friend :P ) but I definetly preferred WZ because of its gameplay and camera controls.
Still, Warzone wasn't complete, and we dont know what developers could have put into its multiplayer mode (and more) if they had more time. It's not dedicated to multiplayer gaming, so it lacks of basic multiplayer stuff which help you in controls speed like hotkeys for everything (one of the most important things in Blizzard games was to remember every single hotkey, that gave you a big help to speed your game up). In Warzone, you always need some time to do everything, even sending your repairers to each unit which need repairs. And that's another thing I enjoy of this game: you never have time for a break. Your mouse should always be moving, in every moment. Still, the lack of some hotkey isn't really a handicap in multiplayers game. Why? Simple, other players haven't got them too. It could mean something again CPUs, but it's a really minor problem if you have some skill in the game.
So, in my opinion, Blizzard games and other RTSs, like Warzone, are completely different. The first are mostly multiplayer orientated, (despite the really well-done campaign, without the multiplayer action I felt something was missing [just like playing Call of Duty without multiplayer, so sad! :) ]), while Warzone, as it is incomplete in its multiplayer side, more campaign-orientated.
Being mostly multiplayer-based its not like being like the "backstreet boys" of the music industry. Being like those would be having only flesh no substance (only ringtones and no music in pop music's case xD) like in some kind of games I know but I won't tell anything about to not pull another discussion about those.



:stare:

density
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by density » 26 Jun 2008, 05:12

Solid points except:
doom3r wrote:Warzone hadn't got anything of these features, except from balancing, which is, for the lack of differenciated factions, quite good (im talking about player vs player balancing, not weapon vs weapon, cos this one is another story).
What do you mean by player vs player balancing?

Warzone suffers from the small tank; medium tank; large tank syndrome. Pointless clutter TBH. Warzone is basically either a race for better tech or a race to mob your opponent with a lot of inferior units. Those are your 2 sole strategic options in this game.

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by lav_coyote25 » 26 Jun 2008, 06:03

hmmm... dunno where you get this "only 2 tactics" from.... many tactics are available , it isnt just a race to the finish unless your wanting that type of rush game... and you dont need to use any rules... (see the documents project : strategy and tactics : rules of the road - the devils advocate... :twisted: )

the information is old - and still relevent to todays games.


http://docs.wz2100.net/


you may want to bookmark that link.

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by density » 26 Jun 2008, 06:30

Decoys; VTOLS; artillery and bad grammar... I will have to investigate!

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by Chojun » 26 Jun 2008, 16:49

Warzone is far more immersive than any Blizzard or Westwood RTS game; I think THAT point cannot be argued.

density
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by density » 26 Jun 2008, 18:14

Chojun wrote:Warzone is far more immersive than any Blizzard or Westwood RTS game; I think THAT point cannot be argued.
What does that mean? How can a videogame be immersive?

You're hitting keys on a keyboard, do you realize that? Or are you so caught up in videogames that you forget it and think that you are actually a commander sending units to their certain death, killing hundreds of [digital] people?

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by Chojun » 26 Jun 2008, 21:50

I will take your post as being facetious.. :ninja:

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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by Rman Virgil » 26 Jun 2008, 22:11

What does that mean? How can a videogame be immersive?
* In the same way as looking at little black squiggles on paper - a well written novel.

* Or sitting on your arse in a dark auditorium, with hundreds of other peeps, gaping at bigger than life projected images.

* Or sitting across a Chess board, facing an opponent of equal measure, playing at tournament level.

* Or looking at a provocative magazine photo and engaging Mary Palmer in your brain's imaginings.

* That enough or were you indeed being cheeky like you were with Lav's referral about tactics ?

- Regards, Rman ;)
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Impact = C x (R + E + A + T + E)

Contrast
Reach
Exposure
Articulation
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Echo
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Re: Warzone is as good as I remember it BUT

Post by Rman Virgil » 26 Jun 2008, 22:56

________________

* I thought this from the Feb. '08 Game Developers Conference revealing:

Blizzard's Senior Vice President of Game Design (and World of WarCraft overlord), Rob Pardo, obviously knows a thing or two about multiplayer game development -- and he spoke on the subject at this year's Game Developers Conference. In what effectively amounted to a Multiplayer Game Design 101 seminar for inexperienced developers, Pardo stressed factors such as game balance, skill differentiation (tailoring an experience that works for both new players and veteran players), the importance of ladders and rating systems for competitive play, user-friendly chat mechanics, effective matchmaking systems, and visual clarity (that is, making sure players can always decipher what's happening on the screen). Pardo also cited the importance of mathematics as they relate to game balance, encouraging developers to play their own games in an effort to understand and make use of subtle nuances during the fine-tuning process.

One particularly interesting thing Pardo touched on was player psychology, noting that a game is only as fair and balanced as its players believe it is. He dragged WOW's "rest experience" mechanic out as a prime example of how a nuanced change can have a big effect; early on, players gained full experience from killing monsters, with a penalty tacked on after a certain number of hours (not-so-subtle encouragement to take a break). Eventually, due to player complaints, WOW's designers flipped it around: Players earned a certain amount of rest XP by logging out of the game and "resting," and after that, XP gain returned to normal. Suddenly, the mechanic went from penalty to bonus. Funny how psychology works, isn't it?

* BTW... SC's balance has proceeded for YEARS after it's initial retail release. At best, the years long process aspired to perfectibility - a whole other critter than perfection itself.

* Indeed, Blizzard designers themselves have emphasized this on-going process as really never ending and have even cautioned about relying to heavily on the perfect mathematics of balance as possibly leading to a predictable boredom. Of course when you play in Korea where a great bulk of SC sales are from you enter the world high-stakes gambling where the risk of losing your financial shirt makes up for any potential intrinsic flagging of interest in the SC's GPMs...

- Regards, RV :)
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Impact = C x (R + E + A + T + E)

Contrast
Reach
Exposure
Articulation
Trust
Echo
.

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