You don't care about Windows

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Watermelon
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You don't care about Windows

Post by Watermelon » 26 Dec 2007, 14:55

split from "MSVC vs. others"
OvermindDL1 wrote: Although the app is plenty fast enough as it is (makes sense considering the age), it is only taking up 14.46% of the cpu time over both my cores (double that to about 29% for a single core).  On slower computers (more along the lines of when this game was released), it would still fare well, but it is spending most of its time in the OpenGL API, which would hurt it on those older systems.
your analysis is definitely correct, the killer is the renderer/OpenGl API.I analyzed it with some timers to test time-spent per game module per frame:

debug build:(timer precision is 10ms)
game logics: 32bit surface incompatibility problem and disables hardware acceleration of DirectDraw,resulting in Software OpenGl fallback/slowness of 1-5fps.

I am using MSVC mainly under windows to edit code,because I havent found any other editor/IDE is even comparable with it.

The java ones are annonying from time to time,for the aid-newbie sytnax/bracing auto generation,much like VB complains everytime you leave a ';' at the end of a line.

Devcpp = no longer maintained,tons of problems compiling.

Code::blocks:Right-Click->Edit->Copy Right-Click->Edit->Paste oooooo a copy paste takes interleaved 2 right-clicks and 4 left-clicks remains me of some RTS that did Click Interface so wrong.

Anxxxx(Can never spell it) too early in development to be usable,supposed to be MSVC-clone under linux.

Keep in mind that warzone was developed in MSVC,without modern debugging tools like MSVC,developing a game that has  the scope and scale of warzone will take up to 10x more time,for the time wasted on commandline debuggers and 65536 extra printf's,assert's and recompiles to compensate the lack of decent debugging functionalities.

I have seen many open source projects use MSVC2k5e and release MSVC2k5e binaries,and there are way less problems in MSVC2k5e builds than the 'crosscompiled'.The 'crosscompile' is a joke,because you didnt even get into windows to build it,nor did you test it under windows to tell whether it works or not.

One of the most frustrating parts of this project is linuxification(if thats a word),windows users are advised to change their OS to linux whensoever they have a problem,and the funny fact is that 50%+ of the active forum members who are kind enough to register and share their thoughts are non-linux users,with 50%+ windows user based and no dedicated windows build maintainer,funny huh?

Ah and look what you have done to the community:

userA:I have made some new pie/music/content
devA:look/sound nice
devB:awesome
devC:superb
One month later
userA:So...will this be made into game?
...eternal silence...

The project has many more problems but you devs will need to figure them out yourself,but if you devs keep strangling the community and want to learn it the hard way,then there is nothing others can do to stop you.

OvermindDL1:I think I saw your nick somewhere before,maybe it's BZUniverse? though I am always one of the lame lurking guests on most forums,so I only read posts on BZUniverse occasionally but never get registered :o
Last edited by DevUrandom on 26 Dec 2007, 22:48, edited 1 time in total.
tasks postponed until the trunk is relatively stable again.

Per
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You don't care about Windows

Post by Per » 26 Dec 2007, 16:47

Watermelon wrote: Keep in mind that warzone was developed in MSVC,without modern debugging tools like MSVC,developing a game that has  the scope and scale of warzone will take up to 10x more time,for the time wasted on commandline debuggers and 65536 extra printf's,assert's and recompiles to compensate the lack of decent debugging functionalities.
So why did the game contain those "65536 extra printf's,assert's", not to mention those custom hacks to uncover memory leaks, when it was developed in that wonderful MSVC?
Watermelon wrote: I have seen many open source projects use MSVC2k5e and release MSVC2k5e binaries,and there are way less problems in MSVC2k5e builds than the 'crosscompiled'.The 'crosscompile' is a joke,because you didnt even get into windows to build it,nor did you test it under windows to tell whether it works or not.
Who exactly are doing cross-compiles and releasing untested builds on Windows?
Watermelon wrote: One of the most frustrating parts of this project is linuxification(if thats a word)
It is not a word, and I wonder what exactly it is you object to. We are not adding anything to the game that is linux-only. To the contrary, we are putting a lot of effort into it to ensure that all its features work just as well on all currently supported platforms (Windows, Linux, MacOSX).
Watermelon wrote: windows users are advised to change their OS to linux whensoever they have a problem
That is outright untrue.
Watermelon wrote: the funny fact is that 50%+ of the active forum members who are kind enough to register and share their thoughts are non-linux users,with 50%+ windows user based and no dedicated windows build maintainer,funny huh?
You want to be our Windows build maintainer?
Watermelon wrote: Ah and look what you have done to the community:

userA:I have made some new pie/music/content
devA:look/sound nice
devB:awesome
devC:superb
One month later
userA:So...will this be made into game?
...eternal silence...
We have never tried to hide the fact that we have a large problem with the tools needed to add new content to the game. I am happy that you are helping to solve this problem with pietoaster, which does everyone a lot more good that pointing fingers.
"Make a man a fire, you keep him warm for a day. Set a man on fire, you keep him warm for the rest of his life."

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You don't care about Windows

Post by cybersphinx » 26 Dec 2007, 17:49

Watermelon wrote:I have seen many open source projects use MSVC2k5e and release MSVC2k5e binaries,and there are way less problems in MSVC2k5e builds than the 'crosscompiled'.The 'crosscompile' is a joke,because you didnt even get into windows to build it,nor did you test it under windows to tell whether it works or not.

One of the most frustrating parts of this project is linuxification(if thats a word),windows users are advised to change their OS to linux whensoever they have a problem,and the funny fact is that 50%+ of the active forum members who are kind enough to register and share their thoughts are non-linux users,with 50%+ windows user based and no dedicated windows build maintainer,funny huh?
Seems like no Windows user is dedicated enough to take that position (I certainly don't remember anyone volunteering).

(The following is just an observation, not meant to offend anyone.) Tells you a bit about the people that use an OS. People who just want to use their computer without having to learn much about them use Windows, because everyone else they know does, all the software they know is for Windows (so the "free" Photoshop copy you get from your friendly neighbor works) and those few Linux users they might encounter always gloat about how much better their system is, even though not even games work there (without the help of beverages). Once people leave that stage, they might also leave Windows, because Linux gives them more freedom to do things their way.

Linux offers a large amount of free software, while lots of useful little tools for Windows do cost money. So we have another reason to use Linux: Not having to spend money for software. Instead the programs are more difficult to learn (though perhaps more effective once learned), which takes time. Now as almost everyone will learn sooner or later, you either have time or money. So people with no time to learn the complicated Linux stuff use Windows, and people with enough time don't have the money to buy all that "necessary" Windows stuff (and once they see they can have most of what they need legally free on Linux, tend to avoid using warez). The few people who know how to actually do things on Windows mostly do that professionally, ergo don't have time either.

So there is a split between developers and users, the developers (who need time to spend on a volunteer project such as this) use Linux, the users use Windows (and the developers even crosscompile Windows binaries for the users, since otherwise they wouldn't have any - is that bad?).

Regarding user-made content I agree there isn't enough information on how to get things into the game. But I don't think it is our duty to integrate everything people make into the game, since that will just lead to an amassment of random crap (no offence to people making stuff, but a good game needs a consistent concept, a consistent look and feel; currently there is no concept, so it's impossible to make things that conform to it). But people need enough information on how to make a mod containing their stuff, and that is currently not available.
We want information... information... information.

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You don't care about Windows

Post by OvermindDL1 » 26 Dec 2007, 21:43

Yes, I have been around BZU for more then half a decade now as the resident non-game programmer (only GSH has the source).  Still not time to work on anything myself, but I have taught others enough to get some things done.

And the old version of VC++ was crap, did not even follow the C++ spec, only VC7.1 and higher do (if you set a few project params, which I *always* do).

I use Windows as my main platform, mainly for VC++ and VA, but because it is also where I make my money as well.  I do have other OS's here, but mostly for testing my apps, stability, speed, and so forth.  *nix/BSD needs a gimmick (sad to say) to get the average idiot dev to program for it, and until that time it will not become popular on the desktop (maybe if by some act of God Microsoft was killed without releasing the source...).

I would be willing to give a go for a windows dedicated position, however my time is pretty much non-existent, so I could in no way guarantee any minimum amount of time (not to mention the time it would take to learn the codebase).

Personally though, I have never had any real issues making even my complicated apps multi-platform.  I do all my dev work on windows, but my apps generally compile clean without modification on *nix and run just as fine.  Just use the right-libraries and do not do anything stupid and it seems to "Just Work".  Certainly cannot say that about any half-complicated Java app. :)
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You don't care about Windows

Post by DevUrandom » 26 Dec 2007, 22:35

Watermelon wrote: your analysis is definitely correct, the killer is the renderer/OpenGl API.
Immediate mode...
Watermelon wrote: I am using MSVC mainly under windows to edit code,because I havent found any other editor/IDE is even comparable with it.
Yep, MSVC is one of the best editors I have encountered so far. Didn't yet try Eclipse, though.
Watermelon wrote: I have seen many open source projects use MSVC2k5e and release MSVC2k5e binaries,and there are way less problems in MSVC2k5e builds than the 'crosscompiled'.The 'crosscompile' is a joke,because you didnt even get into windows to build it,nor did you test it under windows to tell whether it works or not.
Cool that MSVC2k5E works better for you than it did for us. I just remember the binaries not working on Win9x or where MSI was not present and MSVCRT80 nicely adding to the download weight with just a few megs.
And if crosscompilation appeared as a joke, I am terribly sorry, it was not meant as one.
For the rest: Who do you think you are?
I installed WinXP and friggin' WinVista just to for you darn griping Windows fanboys (non-griping Windows users not included). I didn't do that to lash myself, but to ensure that your binaries do actually work.
There were probably a few occasions where Windows binaries didn't work everywhere as expected, I admit that. Though for me they worked fine all the time.
Maybe you remember the 2.0.8 release, it wasn't too long ago. Sound was broken for some Linux guys (while it worked for me). Did I suddenly become Windows fanboy, trying to manipulate Linux builds? I don't think so...
Currently WZ is slow for ATI users of all OSes, because a bug/software-fallback in their driver.
2.0.10 is not yet released, because MacOSX is experiencing problems with the sound again (while we have no one free to fix it). I didn't release it yet, because I don't want any half-assed "this works only on X and not on Y OS" releases, which look like a lack of care and quality.
Don't say I don't care. It's a LIE!
Watermelon wrote: One of the most frustrating parts of this project is linuxification(if thats a word),windows users are advised to change their OS to linux whensoever they have a problem,and the funny fact is that 50%+ of the active forum members who are kind enough to register and share their thoughts are non-linux users,with 50%+ windows user based and no dedicated windows build maintainer,funny huh?
Advised to switch? It's already past christmas, but anyway: You get a Joke 2.0 interpreter from me as a gift.
If you encounter any core developer seriously showing no care for your Windows-only Warzone related problems you may contact me personaly. I'll then brief them on PR matters. (This doesn't include driver bugs... We can't even do anything against them on Linux...)
If you want to step in as a dedicated Windows build maintainer, you are very much welcome!
But sadly my experience shows that there are less caring Windows people than would be necessary. (I.e. zero in this case.)
Watermelon wrote: Ah and look what you have done to the community:

userA:I have made some new pie/music/content
devA:look/sound nice
devB:awesome
devC:superb
One month later
userA:So...will this be made into game?
...eternal silence...
That's sad, but we are already busy working on the game. I dare to say that we can't also release mods, develop tools, etc.
We are trying hard on the latter though. (The former is really not our thing to do...)
EditWorld seems to improve (according to the SVN logs, didn't try it yet) and is also constantly moving towards crossplatformness.
Thanks to your PieToaster there is even a dedicated WZ modeling tool. (Yes, you read that correctly. I thank you a lot for that.)
There are Blender export/import scripts. In the field-test with cathuria some bugs were recognized and if Kage gets some time he will fix it. Besides him there sadly are not enough people, who seem to care about it, to volunteer.
Last edited by DevUrandom on 26 Dec 2007, 22:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Rman Virgil
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Re: You don't care about Windows

Post by Rman Virgil » 26 Dec 2007, 23:10

------->

* Holy mackeral..... for a second there I felt like Alice in Wonderland falling in the rabbit hole - I started out in one thread that all of a sudden became 3 threads !!!!

* Well this thread seems the most apt for this post.

* All will settle into a very lovely & robust place for WZ Players,  Moders & Mappers on Windows in a few weeks. :)

* Patience.... it will be rewarded handsomely before ya know it.

- Regards, RV :D
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Re: You don't care about Windows

Post by DevUrandom » 27 Dec 2007, 00:06

Rman Virgil wrote: * Holy mackeral..... for a second there I felt like Alice in Wonderland falling in the rabbit hole - I started out in one thread that all of a sudden became 3 threads !!!!
I am to blame. ;)
When I split off the latest off-topic chatter, I recognized that the previous pro/con MSVC stuff also didn't really belong to the topic...
Hope I didn't cause too much confusion. :)
Rman Virgil wrote: * All will settle into a very lovely & robust place for WZ Players,  Moders & Mappers on Windows in a few weeks. :)
I hope so. :)
All these people insulting me I wouldn't care start to make me puke already... ;)

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Re: You don't care about Windows

Post by OvermindDL1 » 27 Dec 2007, 00:20

I am sorry for poking this into splitting.  It has however made things clear in many respects here. :)
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Re: You don't care about Windows

Post by Buginator » 27 Dec 2007, 02:38

sigh.

He who lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stones ?

...NULL revealed?

Buginator is out, can't say it wasn't ...interesting, although annoying, and in the end, just jaded.
and it ends here.

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Re: You don't care about Windows

Post by Per » 27 Dec 2007, 03:00

OvermindDL1 wrote: I would be willing to give a go for a windows dedicated position, however my time is pretty much non-existent, so I could in no way guarantee any minimum amount of time (not to mention the time it would take to learn the codebase).
We would love to have your help. No minimum amount guarantee needed nor wanted - just pitch in with what you have.
"Make a man a fire, you keep him warm for a day. Set a man on fire, you keep him warm for the rest of his life."

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Re: You don't care about Windows

Post by OvermindDL1 » 27 Dec 2007, 04:10

I have to get it to actually compile first.  Tomorrow, maybe tonight depending on how things work out in RL.
Then need to go through vast swaths of code to get a feel for it.
Then check bugzilla (or whatever your bug system is, what was the link again, there is no link at the top of this site) for things I can look at.
Could be a while regardless...
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Re: You don't care about Windows

Post by Watermelon » 27 Dec 2007, 12:28

DevUrandom wrote: For the rest: Who do you think you are?
I installed WinXP and friggin' WinVista just to for you darn griping Windows fanboys (non-griping Windows users not included). I didn't do that to lash myself, but to ensure that your binaries do actually work.
There were probably a few occasions where Windows binaries didn't work everywhere as expected, I admit that. Though for me they worked fine all the time.
Maybe you remember the 2.0.8 release, it wasn't too long ago. Sound was broken for some Linux guys (while it worked for me). Did I suddenly become Windows fanboy, trying to manipulate Linux builds? I don't think so...
Currently WZ is slow for ATI users of all OSes, because a bug/software-fallback in their driver.
2.0.10 is not yet released, because MacOSX is experiencing problems with the sound again (while we have no one free to fix it). I didn't release it yet, because I don't want any half-assed "this works only on X and not on Y OS" releases, which look like a lack of care and quality.
Don't say I don't care. It's a LIE!
No one is trashing linux,so no need to get defensive and act retaliative.

Mellow out and stop taking anything personally, you split the topic and gave it a 'whine' name,which will only make an ass of you and me.

Suggestions are suggestions,at the end of day it's up to you  to decide whether to accept them or not.I am not here to argue and I am not interested in these childish stuff.
tasks postponed until the trunk is relatively stable again.

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