* O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

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Rman Virgil
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* O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 14 Nov 2007, 20:08

-------->

* I saw those catty, f#$ked-up, ingrate remarks a couple weeks back on the IRC channel 'bout your codeing style & identity....

* And what I say is f#?kem...

* There's a bunch of us in the community who truly appreciate your efforts on behalf of the game & we could give a chit if your an alien life-form from Alpha Centuri or your style of codeing is not palatable to the "powers" that be.

* Your efforts speak for themselves & we find them wonderfully creative, exciting & full of pulse-pounding life blood promise. :)

* Come-on back, you are every bit respected & appreciated by the overwhelming majority of WZ fans & f+#k what that insular coterie has to opine. IMHO, your work stands heads & shoulders above all that bull chit - & like my play on words in the topic title, you are an artist of your chosen form.... no doubt 'bout that.

- Regards, Rman :)
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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 14 Nov 2007, 21:34

--------->>>

* K.... let it be clear, this is NOT 'bout flames.... in no way, shape or form.

* Got it ?

* It's 'bout an injustice. It' s 'bout bearing witness. It's 'bout supporting a good guy whose never been anything but kind & generous to me here.

* We all f#@k-up, make mistakes we come to regret - "human, all too human", as a bard-philospher once put it.

* But the great divide is that some can "man-up" to these errors in judgement & make what atonement is apt.... while on the other side, there's them that would choose to ignore their errings, pretend they never happened, hoping no one will bring it up or notice, & that it'll get lost in the assumed vacuous space between ear-drums. by way of mumness.

* Hell NO ! Bull chit !

* And that's why I'm posting.

* If Watermelon decides to go his own way & put this behind him - kwel. I can understand & respect that.  No prob, all the best, all good things to ya bud.

* But what brought it here - that should not be "swept under the carpet".

* Acknowledge it - maning-up ain't that tough... Then let it go & move-on.

* That's it.

- Rman
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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 15 Nov 2007, 02:33

--------->

* Here's another PoV on what happened  and my addressing it here:

[Wed 02:25:48pm]

Buginator: i have no idea. rman jack is no stranger to creating drama out of very little.
* TRANSLATION: The actual incident had very little meaning or significance, I'm being melodramatic & making a mountain out of a mole hill where the consensus is a molehill because that's my "thing".

* Dude let me tell you something - so far I'm the only one that has spoken to it in this bb..... but make  no mistake, it's been making the rounds in private since it happened - how long ago now ?

* HOWEVER.... & listen-up close..... quite a number brought this bull chit to my attention FIRST, privately, before I ever thought of articulating it in public (and I was aware of it when it 1st went down but thought to myself, you all would never "get it" so why bother speaking to you of it & lo & behold you've demonstrated the veracity of that judgement.)

* Well, weather YOU get it or not, doesn't matter in the end. You've made it pretty clear what your about and I give you props for that blunt honesty. It's really good to have that info out there in the open from jump street 'cause there's no confusion or wasted time thinking that it's otherwise.

* That Watermelon gets that YOUR disposition is not representive of the majority aware of his efforts - that's important & that's what this is about.

* Go on your blithe way, never having a clue WHY good people desert your side without nary a word of goodbye. Who knows, maybe you'll have an epiphany some day.

* There are a host of good people here which is why I'm around.

* That said, I'll likely be drifting off myself as I want to stay more focused on the alternative - the very REAL alternative & its new home, which I take as a genuine blessing - grateful for the joy & hope it inspires in WZs viable & evolving future.

* I'm not making a sweeping judgement but you know the old saw about the possible effect of an apple on a whole barrel.

- regards, RV :)
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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Buginator » 15 Nov 2007, 05:22

Just when was the time frame for this specific incident?  I would check the logs, but I don't have a time frame reference.
I do recall seeing something about bad coding practices, but I can't recall exactly what context it was in.  This wasn't this week I don't think? 
I do know that Watermelon wasn't singled out (at least I don't think he was, see above),  they have also commented on other people's code on the ML, & current codebase, which (I guess) also took offense to either what was said, or how it was handled, and seem to have stepped away (but I do NOT know this, I am only guessing.  It could just be they wanted to move on for whatever reason, like that pesky real life stuff. ;)), which really is a shame.  WZ can use all the help it can get.

You can pull allot of things off the IRC logs, and make it look bad or good depending on what your trying to do.

Just today, we were talking about some code, and I could not understand what or why it was done.  That was about another dev member that is incommunicado it seems.  From my perspective, the code was uncommented, and thus is left for conjecture.
This also applies to the other more active dev members,  sometimes, I just don't understand where they are coming from.

Does that mean they are bad coders?  No, not really, but I guess that also depends on what do you mean by 'bad coder'. 
Does it mean what they worked on is useless/no good?  That depends.
If I/(we) can't figure it out, then the options are leave it, or rip it out until we can find the exact reason why it was done.  That isn't exactly easy in some cases, and is just plain wrong in others (IMO).

This codebase is already very hard to try to understand & debug some of the things that are going on in it, and adding stuff to it that makes other people scratch their head in wonder isn't exactly good either.

Kinda of a damn if you do, damn if you don't type of thing also.  You don't want to criticize people too much so they leave, but you do want them to more fully document the code/patches, but you can't force people to do this.


But back to your original statement about Watermelon.
Watermelon has done some nice work, he stepped up to the plate and produced pie toaster & another stat editing utility, when nobody else did, and released the source code.  That says allot about the person.
He also made some patches which leave, me at least, wondering what is going on.
Do I wish he would come back and help the project again?  Absolutely!
Did he step away from the project because of what was said about his work (or something else?) I don't know, and unless you talked to Watermelon, I don't think you know.
Your just guessing.
Which is what I think Per was stating to me.  (Which I could be wrong, but that his how I took it)


Watermelon, (or whoever else) you can PM me with any relevant info you have, or just post in this thread.


That is my .002 on this.
and it ends here.

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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Chojun » 15 Nov 2007, 05:45

[...] which really is a shame.  WZ can use all the help it can get.
A shame...  yes...  Instead of critiquing others' work (which is done largely at their own personal expense) I'd imagine that people would accept others' work with a healthy smile and hardy handshake.
Last edited by Chojun on 15 Nov 2007, 20:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 15 Nov 2007, 06:26

--------->

* @ Buginator:

* It was within the 24 hour period between  Weds, 24th - Thu, 25 Oct 2007 1:03 PM.... that's the closest I can pinpoint it based on emails.

* I hear what your saying about taking things outta context to make peeps appear like a-holes. I'm very sensitive to that because its been done to me, & I make every effort to portray in context - context is the grail just like god is in the details & so is the devil in their absence or distortion.

* Look it up..... I didn't miss-read it, Buginator. It was out in out cruel & also a hypocrisy. Because in the same breath that his work was being dogged & ridiculed, there was talk of how to use it as a highlight in the next release. WTF is that !

* Look Buginator, I can relate to you, Freddie, Dev & Troman 'cause you guys not only know your chit but you are all obviously by nature fair-minded, genuinely listen to other peeps PoV & are honestly caring...... that's what I get from all your public communications.

* But there are others that seem more concerned with being percieved as gods gift to the digital world & flawless in their perceptions at the expense of publically putting other peeps down as inferior - and then they go ahead to use their so-called "inferiors" work... what's THAT all about ?

* Sorry that's bull chit to me.

* I've meet many extraordinary peeps on the world stage (aknowledged world-class) in many disciplines thru my life and I'll tell you they all have common traits in addition to their genius - down to earth, caring, kind, generous, warm spirits without absolutely no airs of superiority.

* So.. come-on now.... no matter how good you think you are in anything I gaurantee you there are multitudes on this planet that'll leave you in the dust.. ('course there are towering giants like Plato, Leonardo, Newton, Einstein, Picasso, Goethe, Dante, Shakespeare, Confucious, Mozart, Gershwin, Hendrix and so on.... who are genuinely unrivaled...but that's a tiny fraction of the population in any generation.)

* Anyway,

- Regards, RV
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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Watermelon » 15 Nov 2007, 17:43

Dont worry, I am still around.

I am kinda winded up with working on wz code,not because of the flaks and shyts that come from nowhere,but the slow and chaotic development of WRP.

For the irc log I read them some time ago,I did foresee that I wouldnt get any positive from WRP,so I simply ignore their rather unconstructive stuff.I shouldnt have followed this project this long if I am easily offended,since such stuff happened many times on others/me before,and WRP is losing its community members and contributors every now and then.

Believe or not more developers made WRP development slower,cos noone makes compromise when implementing features or doing a particular task.Currently the trunk is completely borked and even the most experienced coders will shy away from it.A person who claims he knows everything about 'open' or 'freedom',but also has horribly closed mind,does nothing right.

Another major problem is that WRP crews spent too much time on fruitless discussion or 'argument',there will always endless ideas on how to do something 'perfectly',but at last noone is bother to actually do it when the long lasting argument is over/replaced by something offtopic.The development would not be this slow if they spent more time on actual works and experiments than the useless heated debate and rebuking community's ideas/suggestions violently.

Power to others not power over others,there is no excuse for ignoring the community,a project without a solid community/user base is like a breath without air,will become lifeless eventually.

I hope this clears things up.

Peace out.
tasks postponed until the trunk is relatively stable again.

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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 15 Nov 2007, 19:55

---------->

* Thanks Watermelon. for speaking hard truths with honor, grace & courage :)

* There's a better situation if you are interested.

* In any case, take care bud & be sure to know that your efforts throughout are well regarded by most who genuinely care about the fate of WZ.

- Regards, Rman :D
Last edited by Rman Virgil on 16 Nov 2007, 05:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Chojun » 15 Nov 2007, 20:48

As I see things, the world needs more people like Socrates, who said "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance."

That is the key to knowledge and is wisdom in and of itself.  Einstein said something to a similar effect: "The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know."

The underlying principle here is humility, which to me is the foundation of intellectualism, and more importantly makes up the glue that holds communities together.
The best thing to do when your philosophies don't stand up to debate is to lock the thread and claim victory.

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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 16 Nov 2007, 05:33

Chojun wrote: As I see things, the world needs more people like Socrates, who said "I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance."

That is the key to knowledge and is wisdom in and of itself.  Einstein said something to a similar effect: "The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know."

The underlying principle here is humility, which to me is the foundation of intellectualism, and more importantly makes up the glue that holds communities together.
* Indeed it is - the heart & soul of what  can endure the "slings & arrows of outrageous fortune..." with grace & compassion intact.

- RV :)
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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Buginator » 16 Nov 2007, 07:13

Watermelon wrote: Dont worry, I am still around.
That's good to hear!
I am kinda winded up with working on wz code,not because of the flaks and shyts that come from nowhere,but the slow and chaotic development of WRP.
For the irc log I read them some time ago,I did foresee that I wouldnt get any positive from WRP,so I simply ignore their rather unconstructive stuff.I shouldnt have followed this project this long if I am easily offended,since such stuff happened many times on others/me before,and WRP is losing its community members and contributors every now and then.

Believe or not more developers made WRP development slower,cos noone makes compromise when implementing features or doing a particular task.Currently the trunk is completely borked and even the most experienced coders will shy away from it.A person who claims he knows everything about 'open' or 'freedom',but also has horribly closed mind,does nothing right.
What exactly is wrong with trunk?  You don't give any examples.
For me at least, fixing issues I find in trunk is my main goal right now, and if you see something that is borked, please elaborate.
I know allot of stuff has been fixed, and trunk is pretty much 64bit safe now.
There have been many memory leaks fixed, and the ones left are caused by the lex stuff, and the resident guru on that stuff is busy.  Also have fixed other issues, like the actual deleting of the save games, fixed it so that it don't "swallow" keys/mouse wheel updates as before, and many other stuff that was in the bug tracker.
Trunk still compiles fine on MSVC (what I mainly use), you just need to get the new libs.
Working on fog issues & corruption of savegames (only in ubuntu 7.10??) right now.
Another major problem is that WRP crews spent too much time on fruitless discussion or 'argument',there will always endless ideas on how to do something 'perfectly',but at last noone is bother to actually do it when the long lasting argument is over/replaced by something offtopic.The development would not be this slow if they spent more time on actual works and experiments than the useless heated debate and rebuking community's ideas/suggestions violently.

Power to others not power over others,there is no excuse for ignoring the community,a project without a solid community/user base is like a breath without air,will become lifeless eventually.
Yes, there is allot of talk on how to do stuff, and then there is allot of 'I don't know' type remarks.  I have been harping on what I find annoying about the cursor (currently a tiny blue stub) which I have a simple fix for it to make it a more visible white line, but nothing really came of it yet.  It is stuck in the 'I don't know' loop.  Is that annoying? Yes.
Having said that, most of my other patches have made it in, with little or some modifications.  So it does take time to review them, and most of the devs don't have much time to do what they want, and look at someone else's stuff to go over it.
If they gave everyone svn access right away, that would invite chaos.  There does need to be some order on how things are done, and if you look @ the project while it was as Berlios, they pretty much said the same thing about getting access.
It is hard when the time zones are all different, then you have the language issues that creep up every now & then.  Not exactly a easy thing to handle.

Let me give another little example, I submitted a bug fix for windows platforms on the physfs ML.  Did I hear back from them?  Nope.  No communications at all.  They don't have a IRC channel either.  Did they not like the fix?  Was it 'bad code'?  While I don't think it was, maybe whoever is in charge of that project thinks it sucks, and is doing something different.  I have zero clue on what is going on.  I just have been told that he/they(?) is/are busy. 

I don't know how you can keep things on topic all the time.  Yes, it happens allot, and I am guilty of this, as are many others, but it really isn't a coding only IRC channel.  It is open to all.  Most of the time, nothing is really being said.  Besides, debugging WZ code is B-o-r-i-n-g!
I hope this clears things up.
Peace out.
It answers some things, but still leaves questions.
If you could answer them, it would be appreciated!
and it ends here.

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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Buginator » 16 Nov 2007, 07:37

Rman Virgil wrote: ---------->

* Thanks Watermelon. for speaking hard truths with honor, grace & courage :)

* There's a better situation if you are interested.

* In any case, take care bud & be sure to know that your efforts throughout are well regarded by most who genuinely care about the fate of WZ.

- Regards, Rman :D
First, thanks Rman for the time reference, I found what I needed to find. :)

By better situation, you mean the other warzone projects?
While I know there may be other warzone projects out there, nobody really knows anything about them, besides what has been said on IRC or the forums.  That is all closed work, so they don't have anyone submitting any feedback or have the issues of a open project, no IRC channel to monitor progress or really any info on what is going on.
Any request to see the work or parts of it has been more or less denied.  Why?  Unknown.
Until the time they get the resources ready so everyone can see what has been going on, you can't really compare what is being done, if it is better or not.

I don't mean to offend anyone by that, but it sure is hard to know what is going on if it is a closed project.
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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 16 Nov 2007, 09:55

---->

* Hi there Buginator, n/p.

* I meant it broadly & specifically.

* There's always something better out there if your dissatisfied. But you've got to go for it - esp if your not in a position of authority your better off moving on to a situation that is naturally a  better "fit" for you.

* Which is my segue for what I call base "philosophical differences" which impact directly the collaborative dynamic.

* I appreciate the FOSS protocols & their accomplishments but they are NOT compatible to everyone's temperment or base philosphical PoV.

* Frankly, I prefer to work with people that I not only respect for what they bring to the table for the project but whom I also like & care about as human beings. You can right away see the difference in perspectives there.

* On top of that, I also much prefer the "Skunk Works" (Lockehead Martin) collaborative model than the FOSS.

* It's all about "freedom of choice"...

* Which leads me to the divergent versions of WZ.

* I've played several.... one is a major alternative to the WRP & I am involved.

* The time will come in the near future when ALL will have an opportunity to "test-drive" for themselves.

* I choose to NOT speak anymore in public on the diffs because it's NOT fair to the WRP, for the reasons you've already clearly articulated.

* At the same time, as I've tried to make apparent here & there, this divergence is NOT a competition. It is a reflection, on the one hand,  of those aforementioned base philosophical differences &, on the other hand, a divergence of visions for WZ's evolution. On both counts, there's presently no "fitting" together... though that may change down the road. Also,  we've tried to pass-on some fundamental info / know-how to help benefit the WRP 'cause afterall, though we may differ in approaches & goals, we still care & want no animosity. We've loved WZ & it's promise (as we percieve it) for years. The WRP has done (& is doing) valuable work on WZs behalf & we really respect that. We just have other stuff to do

- Regards, RV :)
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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by EvilGuru » 16 Nov 2007, 18:33

While I know there may be other warzone projects out there, nobody really knows anything about them, besides what has been said on IRC or the forums.  That is all closed work, so they don't have anyone submitting any feedback or have the issues of a open project, no IRC channel to monitor progress or really any info on what is going on.
Any request to see the work or parts of it has been more or less denied.  Why?  Unknown.
Until the time they get the resources ready so everyone can see what has been going on, you can't really compare what is being done, if it is better or not.
On top of that, I also much prefer the "Skunk Works" (Lockehead Martin) collaborative model than the FOSS.
The two methodologies just described are known in the free software world as the cathedral and the bazaar http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathe ... al-bazaar/ , which is also the title of a book by Eric Raymond (and also one of the first published books which was also available for free to download).

The book analyses the two and comes to the same conclusion that most free software projects have -- the bazaar is much better for any kind of mature project, with everything being open and everyone getting their say (within reason).

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Re: * O' Watermelon * Where Art Thou ?

Post by Rman Virgil » 16 Nov 2007, 19:13

EvilGuru wrote:

The book analyses the two and comes to the same conclusion that most free software projects have -- the bazaar is much better for any kind of mature project, with everything being open and everyone getting their say (within reason).
* Like most all sweeping generalizations there are exceptions to the rule.

* Just like classic set theory still has it's viable place (esp. Godel's work) while in no way invalidating fuzzy-sets or visa versa.... same with Newtonian Physics vis-a-vis Quantum Mechanics, Relativity or Hiesenberg's UP.

* The simple fact is that FOSS is not even on the same planet with with Skunk Works as far as achievements that have impacted Western Civilization. (Course that doesn't mean it won't some day catch-up... at the same time it will never escape it's birth heritage at Bell Labs...)

* And while Eric Raymond makes good points in his analysis he is no Moses at the burning bush delivering gospel from way up high.

* Fact is his anylsis is cardboard simplistic in this sense:

* Within Skunk Works modus the dynamic between participants can take-on the group psychology of FOSS just as explicated. (While the reverse is hard to concieve.)

* In short FOSS can work for some groups & Skunk Works can work just as well for other groups.

* Personally FOSS smacks of collectivism to me (and we all know that track-record) where as Skunk Works can accomodate productively & harmoniously iconoclasts (those who don't toe the party-line). In that sense, the "maturity" advantage falls to the later, IMHO & personal experience.

* In the end, the proof is in the pudding & those who choose to eat it with relish or turn there nose up at it & shove it off the dinner table.

Regards, RV :)
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