forks?

[Originway]

I don't see what the reason is for doing forks. It splits people power up and sets the respective communities against each other as can be clearly seen in these forms with talk from the head person in charge of legacy saying that this project is doomed.

As Eric Raymond says in ‘Homesteading the Noosphere’ in ‘The Cathedral & the Bazaar”:

There is a strong social pressure against forking projects. It does not happen except under plea of dire necessity, with much public self-justification, and requires re-naming.

It makes no sense to do such a thing unless there are insurmountable differences which I don't see here, instead this is just about a petty feud of some type.
Everyone wants to see path finding fixed and other bug issues as well, to state otherwise is just a lie.

now let us look at the goals of legacy fork

Warzone 2100 Legacy is a fork of the Warzone 2100 Ressurection Project with the goals of
utilizing modern technology found in Warzone 2100 3.1 for a superior engine and GUI

who is this ressurection project? I see no mention of this anyplace on here, so it can't be them

, while keeping gameplay, and just about
anything considered nostalgic, especially the balance, mostly intact as it was in 2.3.9.

balance is done in those stat files from what I read so why not submit the data to this project?

Warzone 2100 Legacy features in game spectating

a good way for cheaters to keep tabs on the competition

, IRC-style /me messages used with just "/"

The /me is an action message on IRC.

* Subsentient wafts his fart in tomato_War 's direction
* Subsentient rips a putrid and massive fart, and turns on the fan in tomato_War
* Subsentient duct tapes his mouth shut but still squeaks out in muffled hysterical laughter

right, people want those kind of juvenile things in the game

, more stable netcode,

<Subsentient> vexed__: I wanted to offer patches you have yet to implement..
<vexed__> patches for what ?
<Subsentient> For example, the game literally taking a giant core dump when you host after viewing the lobby if the lobby borks and forgets to close the socket.
<vexed__> Well, patches go on trac.
<Subsentient> NETclose() doesn't work there, so we let the title screen's NETshutdown() take care of it.
<vexed__> I don't think that is a fix, that seems like a workaround.
<Subsentient> vexed__: It is, a temporary one.

doesn't look more stable, even you said it is a temporary one

enhanced game speeds (in most occasions, you will experience a faster game, while on a few systems, it's slower),

this is not a bash, I am just stating facts. All my friends with pretty much the same high end gear as I have all have slower gameplay on your builds but as I stated before if you can't normally hit above 60 frames then I guess you wouldn't know.

map, AI, and nickname selector menus that can hold 2.5x as many items as the originals,

why isn't this on trac as was stated from the quote above?

ten tank supertransports,

IIRC the original limits are for balance as was stated on these forums

the excellent targeting, unit/defense behaviour, and balance of 2.3.x (excluding changes for half-builds and a few minor things), and much, much more.

this guy made a patch http://developer.wz2100.net/ticket/3748 and they applied it for targeting bugs
this project clearly accepts patches that fix things and I saw one patch from you that was also applied. That means they hold nothing against anyone if you want to help then help. Stating this project is "doomed" to further your agenda is both childish and juvenile.

P.T. Barnum said it best, "You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time."

[Avestron]

I'll try to get the most positive part of this thread and work with it.

There is some merit to the concept that multiple factions working upon the same game would benefit from the synergy of their efforts pitched either in unison or in tandem towards the same source.

Of course the practical situation is that the multiple factions that exist do not entirely see eye-to-eye for as far as direction is concerned. Which is a shame in my honest opinion. Duplication of efforts is inevitable.

In my opinion the way forward for wz2100, regardless of faction concerned, would be to move towards a partitioning into primary modules, secondary modules, and tertiary plug-ins. All would be linked into a kingpin module.

The kingpin module would be the version build of WZ2100. It would determine the difference between 2.X and 3.X. This module would incorporate the code required to run all primary modules, preferably extending to the framework support for secondaries and tertiaries.

- The kingpin module on its own would be capable of running without any other modules present or assigned. Such would be a default menu similar to the current pre-game menu with a large portion of the functionality required to navigate the pre-game section of the game.

- A primary module would be a build for each single core aspect of the game. I am thinking pre-game and in-game as two main primary modules (in addition to the king pin module mentioned earlier)

Each primary module would provide a number of slots for secondary modules and would in themselves also include a default functional version of such, serving as a functional fallback in the absence or non-assignment of such secondary modules.

- A secondary module would pertain to any large section of code called upon to resolve a particular purpose. Such could include campaigns, skirmish modes, path-finding, targeting logic, hard-coded values, and so on. Such aspects would be grouped together within the main module and superceded by secondary modules.

- A plug-in would be a function that supercedes a section, or more, of code - but would perhaps work a little less efficiently than if it were a secondary module. Such would be good for experimenting with new concepts.

/\/\/\/\/\

Yes the above is a lay-person's perspective of things - but the idea would be that the above would be a big step towards efficient multiplicity. Different factions could, at worst, work on different kingpin modules - and share other modules that may or may not be interchangeable. Ideally they would be able to settle their differences on the level of primary modules, with the king-pin hardly being touched.

-

The end-user would be able to set his version to so-and-so version so as to seek out like-minded players. These games would show up side-by-side with other version games for players that have the appropriate version and plug-ins installed. Such may also be activated and de-activated as defaults - and plug-ins may be automatically checked as upgradeable, similar to wordpress and the like.

I do believe that the faction that achieves the above will hold the edge. However it is in the interest of all factions and the players to work on the same infrastructure as surely we cannot disagree too severely over the meta-physical

[Rman Virgil]

.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people all of the time."

Abe Lincoln said that, not PT Barnum.

Though Barnum is credited with saying -

"There's a sucker born every minute."

Which brings us to this quote:

It's my way or the highway....

That expresses the fundamental philosophy here, as it's come up on innumerable ocassions over the years, most recently a few months back during the several discussions on power and its manifest excercise… Not an auspicious basis for any form of mutually rewarding collaboration. Nor is it the basis for anything positively generative. However, there is no better stance for growing alienation by leaps and bounds. Exactly what always happens.

.

[bendib]

Originway, you are again grasping at straws. You intentionally misinterpet me whenever you can. I don't believe your friends tested my project, because you dislike it too much to suggest it to them. Lies are yet another reason Legacy was created. As for the original IRC quote, the tomatos are a group of cheaters and quitters who deserved every silly, harmless joke I threw their way.

In the name of all that is Cyan and Furry, Reveal your IRC username.

@Staff: Ban this guy? This is at least the second defamation thread of me and my project he has started for that purpose alone, and he rarely says anything helpful or nice. This is far from the first personal attack he's performed on me. Please kick him back, or I will probably end up doing it outside the forums. A man can only take so much stress before his head goes supernova. I have far too much stress in my life and this guy is just topping it off. I am still recovering from the fallout of a mental Chernobyl that made Hiroshima look like Disneyland, and also gave me the right to say "You think you know pain?" (really not much of an exaggeration folks) and I really don't need this on top of it all. I just want to develop my project.

[Lord Apocalypse]

This site was formally known as the resurrection project. Forks are a natural progression of any given project and are healthy as they will ultimately help any and all projects related to the same related goal. Over time there will probably be an exchange of code between legacy and this project, possibly even Redemption (though most Redemption changes may be too radical or won't mesh with 3.x).

In most cases forks take place over differing design philosophies such as WP and Legacy or even Redemption. They can also come about when a project forks an abandoned version (2.x series as example) to continue on a different path. The Devs here aren't diluted because of either fork even if for whatever reason you think they are. This project can't lose developers it never had to begin with.

[Originway]

This site was formally known as the resurrection project. Forks are a natural progression of any given project and are healthy as they will ultimately help any and all projects related to the same related goal. Over time there will probably be an exchange of code between legacy and this project, possibly even Redemption (though most Redemption changes may be too radical or won't mesh with 3.x).

In most cases forks take place over differing design philosophies such as WP and Legacy or even Redemption. They can also come about when a project forks an abandoned version (2.x series as example) to continue on a different path. The Devs here aren't diluted because of either fork even if for whatever reason you think they are. This project can't lose developers it never had to begin with.

I was trying to say that the premise of this particular fork is built from straw mans arguments. In other words the whole project existence was only made to split the community not because of real differences but because of juvenile behavior.

Originway, you are again grasping at straws. You intentionally misinterpet me whenever you can. I don't believe your friends tested my project, because you dislike it too much to suggest it to them. Lies are yet another reason Legacy was created. As for the original IRC quote, the tomatos are a group of cheaters and quitters who deserved every silly, harmless joke I threw their way.

I know who they are but you always do that on IRC to everyone not just them. Should I post more of what you say to people?
as for the rest, that is the problem you don't believe me even though I have no reason to lie about the same performance issues that was part of this project until they switched back

@Staff: Ban this guy? This is at least the second defamation thread of me and my project he has started for that purpose alone, and he rarely says anything helpful or nice. This is far from the first personal attack he's performed on me.

I don't see defamation anyplace but coming from you and your buddies saying this project is "doomed"

Please kick him back, or I will probably end up doing it outside the forums.
A man can only take so much stress before his head goes supernova. I have far too much stress in my life and this guy is just topping it off. I am still recovering from the fallout of a mental Chernobyl that made Hiroshima look like Disneyland, and also gave me the right to say "You think you know pain?" (really not much of an exaggeration folks) and I really don't need this on top of it all. I just want to develop my project.

I suggest you seek professional help then, it really looks like you need it

[Lord Apocalypse]

I was trying to say that the premise of this particular fork is built from straw mans arguments. In other words the whole project existence was only made to split the community not because of real differences but because of juvenile behavior.

Not really. The argument for a fork is rather valid. As has been stated before this project has a set vision that it doesn't really deviate from. While some or maybe many of the arguments could be fixed with additional manpower for this project it still would not fix some of the underlying flaws inherent with any project team.

Consider the history of the WZ community. It has fractured multiple times over the years due to differing views on the direction that WZ should take. We lost A LOT of serious talent a long time ago do to differing philosophies. And that was just over removing DirectX in favor of OpenGL and cross platform support. While that was a stupid reason it did WZ little justice.. If you want to continue bickering about it go ahead.

OR

Stop flapping your lips and learn to program.

[Jorzi]

This thread needs some serious diplomatic efforts.
To me this looks like a typical verbal duel between two teenage geeks. (Been there done that)

@Originway: What are you trying to achieve by constantly criticizing bendib's fork? He has every right to do that and the fact that he has the dedication to pull off such an initiative should be applauded. He rises far above the average whiner by actually making the changes he wants rather than complain at other guys to do it.

@bendib: Leadership is all about having sh*t thrown at you without throwing back. I'm not saying it's easy or anything, but don't fall into the trap of always criticizing the criticizers. Also, before you publicly ask the mods to ban anyone, remember that they cannot simply silence people. The fact that you are the one asking to ban your opponent in a debate also makes you look pretty bad.

[bendib]

@Jorzi: If this was about Legacy alone, just criticism then I wouldn't care, but these are blatant and repeated personal attacks on me and my project, our character, our motivations, and false accusations about what we've done. It is an attack on my project's very soul and has possibly caused incalculable damage to the project's reputation quite wrongly, costing me the users and support I need. I don't silence those who critisize me, I silence those who attack me. There is a very big difference between these two things and Originway has crossed that line a long time ago. I can take a "your project sucks, so do you". I can forgive that. Originway has gone above and beyond the call of duty for destroying my project's and possibly my own reputation simply because it's mine. THAT is why I want him to be banned.

@Originway: I haven't bad-mouthed the project in quite some time, I have been minding my own business. Others can see this.
You just keep parroting the same false accusations and statements trying to defame me, and although I don't believe you think there is a god, I do, and I think you'll pay for this one day. GO AHEAD! Post EVERYTHING you have on me! All the way back to my birth! I don't care! Everyone knows I'm a goof. It's part of who I am! My avatar is an inverted, cyan-colorized upside down rat face! My location says "Teetering between the edge of insanity and the border of all that's weird"! My nickname is SUBSENTIENT! What do you expect?!? As far as needing professional help, I got plenty of "help" thanks very much, it just messed me up worse. I recovered on my own efforts, not theirs. My life has been a living hell and you are making it undead right when it was cooling off. I always have to fear what false bullcrap you posted to hurt my project whenever I get home!

If you have any soul at all, SILENCE. I am SICK of you. If you can gather the self control and (laughs) benevolence to just leave me the **** alone, then I'll return the favor.

Comprende?

[Jorzi]

I kinda get what you are saying, but the sad truth is this:
By posting responses like this on a public forum, you are attracting the attention of anyone who enjoys making other people's lives miserable. Unforunately these people exist and they're sophisticated enough not to post straight insults in public, moderated forums, that can be easily dealt with.

I don't really know what other advice to give you, but at least I wanted to make sure you are aware of these things...

[Rman Virgil]

.

Defamation of character and a deliberate, calculated, mis-branding of motivation are very, very, difficult NOT to respond to. Practically impossible, especially if these postings are sophisticated enough to pass bb policy guideline muster for banning or deletion. Within a certain clear and savvy scope, they SHOULD be responded to.

In my experience with responding to these type of folk, and their assassination postings, it is most effective to keep the reaction extremely brief and to curtail the response through simple reiteration. And to jorzi's key point - your response need not erode the high ground of effective leadership. Indeed, you can still preserve effective leadership in responding.

Here, let me give a concrete rhetorical example:

"Qrstw Xyz." assassination posting.

Response:

"That is false. Nothing more need be said."

Again-

"Qrstw Xyz + 2" follow-up assassination posting.

Second counter:

"That is false. Nothing more need be said."

After about the 3rd-4th round of that exchange pattern, interest is lost in continuing because the "beast" is not being fed the "red meat" of an ongoing, urgent and detailed self-defense posture. In effect, the beast is fed a starvation diet of dry bones instead of red meat.

Basically this is a strategy of pro-active rhetorical attrition. ("Pro-active" attrition to distinguish it from the crude non-response tac of "passive" attrition employed by the hyper-partisan incapable of engaging logical, rationale, factual statement. An important distinction when dealing with the sway of "selective exposure" as opposed to the compulsion of the "beast".)

.

[bendib]

@Rman: I might be forced to adopt such a thing, because Originway has invoked emotions in me that have caused me to violate my own code of existance on more than one occasion. To me, that's a travesty. I think I will do what you said. In the most annoying, benign way I can think of.

[bendib]

I am going to warn you once more Originway, if you ever speak about me or to me again, I will post every post you ever made to me, including my responses, on my server for all to see, and share it generously with those you call friends and affiliates. I don't want to hear a squeak out of you, even a parody squeak, or it goes on the server. Go ahead. Make my day. Respond with a long winded accusation and condemnation of me again, so I can show the world who you really are. I should have done it before, and perhaps I should be doing it right now, but I believe in grace.

You lost the game. Don't stay to wait for objective failed.

-Subsentient

[Staff]

This has gone on long enough, and yet all parties were warned multiple times, and they continue with these kinds of posts.

If you guys can't cool off by yourselves, then, we have no other choice than to give all parties involved a nice vacation again, to think about these things.