A new variant on WZ2100 - (Abandoned)

[dant3 5tra5t]

Added to the features it would be nice to be able to select different effects to the ammunition such as weaker rounds faster ROF, heat effects, ability to control bullet firepower. keeping in mind that it will effect ROF and overall power cost

[Zarel]

Well in my own tradition I'll be piling further ideas that I'd like to get around to - eventually (some time after I get round to starting):

- Experience modifications - calculation of experience to be a function of kills and contacts

Experience = ((kills x 10) + contacts), where

if Current packet of hits / Experience measurement packet > 1
then (contacts = contacts +1) and (CPoHits = CPoHits - EMPacket)

The result would be a situation where both kills and contacts with targets accumulate experience (clicking on a unit will show experience, kills & contacts at the top of the screen).

The experience measurement packet varies from weapon to weapon - put simply a hit with a gauss cannon is going to carry more weight than a hit with an assault gun.

Well, do you realize that experience is given per-hit, and the experience given is [[ damage dealt / total enemy HP * enemy difficulty ]], right?

We do not give out extra experience upon death of enemies, since we don't want a unit to come out with more experience just because they were "luckier".

- Vehicle pilots - When a unit is produced a human counterpart is also generated. This human element (with a pregenerated name) gains experience in that vehicle until either it is destroyed (typically a 5-15%+ survival rate depending on body), recycling or disembarkment.

Erm, other than the 0% survival rate of destruction, we pretty much already do this, we just don't give it a name. And Warzone really isn't the kind of game where named units is a good thing... I mean, it's an RTS. Whoever heard of named units in an RTS?

[Avestron]

Added to the features it would be nice to be able to select different effects to the ammunition such as weaker rounds faster ROF, heat effects, ability to control bullet firepower. keeping in mind that it will effect ROF and overall power cost

Thanks for the comments ^_^

I am in fact intending on an ammunition system similar to the following:

Elements:

- Ammunition Fitting - up to 8 ammunition slots may be loaded into a weapon

(with slots being 1/2, x1, x2, x4 and x8 respectively - a player can combine a x4, x2 and x1 slot for a x7 slot but I intend to make it slightly unfavourable to do so cost-wise - different body types hold different maximums for ammunition while different propulsion types factor in).

eg. viper = max x2, cobra = max x4, python = max x8; VTOL reduces max by 75% automatically and weight becomes an issue

- - -

- Unit production:

Ammunition only factors into unit production costs for as far as the designed unit production stockpile is concerned.

- - -

- Ammunition stockpiling:

For the purpose of this version ammunition would be contributed to from power resources. For the purpose of this system not to get out of hand the following would be true:

A predecessor to the repair facility is introduced - the munitions dump (later upgradable into a repair and restocking facility). This facility permits a player to determine what level of each type of ammunition he or she wants to have produced and stored at the facility. This would be integrated into the slot normally reserved for intelligence and would permit the setting of levels (for which default levels are set).

- - -

- Ammunition changeover

A player can choose to instruct units to 'return for repair/ restock'. In unit orders a player is able to determine a preferred ammunition type. Units repaired and restocked have their remaining old ammunition stockpiled in the facility until it is either recycled (when over the limit) or restocked into other units.

When sending units back - those to whom restocking orders applies (i.e. those able to restock in that type of ammunition) are unselected, leaving those units to whom the order cannot apply, but which are still heading back for restocking - these will either restock in their current ammunition or be instructed to restock in a different type of ammunition available to that unit.

eg. lets say that 5 light cannon vipers and 5 machine gun vipers are instructed to prefer exploding rounds and are then instructed to restock - all units head off for repair/ restock but the light cannons unselect leaving the vipers, indicating an inability to restock in explosive ammunition - but may be able to restock in other rounds.

- - -

- Ammunition management

Determining when vehicles return for restocking is simple enough and is similar to 'return on damage' in unit orders. A unit can either return on depletion, return on 25% or return on 50% - each with their own advantages.

- - -

- Opening further research

Ammunition improvements relating to cartridge packing (+5% ammo, etc) becomes viable

Ammunition conservation methods - such as tracer rounds or the use of a cheaper weapon (MG) to serve as a guide for more heavy direct weapons' munitions, would also increase depth

- - -

- Energy weapons will have a new niche on the battlefield - less powerful but not indefinitely reuseable (ammunition is replaced with weapon batteries - and are charged by the vehicle engine (running out of ammunition temporarily can still be an issue))

- - -

I'll get round to it - still looking at documentation (would help if anybody could reference any single idea mentioned thusfar and point out a particular file or two relating to that idea).

[Avestron]

Well, do you realize that experience is given per-hit, and the experience given is [[ damage dealt / total enemy HP * enemy difficulty ]], right?

Actually I did not realize this :c) I thought it was a direct function of kills. ^_^;

Erm, other than the 0% survival rate of destruction, we pretty much already do this, we just don't give it a name. And Warzone really isn't the kind of game where named units is a good thing... I mean, it's an RTS. Whoever heard of named units in an RTS?

Good point. I'll drop that idea here then. It doesn't really add anything per se.

[Lord Apocalypse]

Pre source Stratadrake tried to create a mod or at least talked about creating a mod that would make ground units have an ammo limit. Don't know whatever happened with it though... I know he got the land mines working though!

[Avestron]

Pre source Stratadrake tried to create a mod or at least talked about creating a mod that would make ground units have an ammo limit. Don't know whatever happened with it though... I know he got the land mines working though!

Sorry for the late reply - been unwell.

Its good to know that I'm not the only player who thinks that adding ammunition to all things would improve the depth of gameplay. ^_^

I've honestly not made much progress at all at this point - taken a rest - will try again soon.

[new paradigm leader]

depth of gameplay? the idea is a tad unusual for any kind of RTS as the level of Micromanagement which is large in warzone tactically speaking anyway would be the ruin of it.

it would be too complicated to be of any playability can you imagine having to reload all your units in the middle of a battle with the new paradigm???? no they would all die and much lulz would be had by NP as they would just have to play conservatively with their lovely hardcrete that you dont have yet while you try to hammer at their defences that will undoubtedly just destroy you

[Avestron]

depth of gameplay? the idea is a tad unusual for any kind of RTS as the level of Micromanagement which is large in warzone tactically speaking anyway would be the ruin of it.

Ruin? Not any more than NTW could become the ruin of WZ - it is a variant.

Micromanagement is only an issue if there is no degree of automation to support it. I believe that I've already, in concept, solved this problem through including this in unit commands. Out of ammo? retreat. Low on ammo? Retreat.

I feel that a further aspect to solving this issue is that units are automatically ungrouped when they disengage for repair. The solution here is to have negative groupings (such as group -1 for group 1 such that units selected by group will disregard those orders unless directly selected through cursor or mouse drag (resetting to group 1 once repaired).

it would be too complicated to be of any playability can you imagine having to reload all your units in the middle of a battle with the new paradigm???? no they would all die and much lulz would be had by NP as they would just have to play conservatively with their lovely hardcrete that you dont have yet while you try to hammer at their defences that will undoubtedly just destroy you

Defenses benefit from not needing to move in order to stockpile ammunition. Ideally they would have ammunition stockpiled just as units would - but would produce. Furthermore it is your choice to have units set to 'do or die' ammunition-wise. Facing New Paradigm? Set units to retreat as they run out of ammunition.

Hardcrete? Lovely stuff but no guarantee. ^_~

[Lord Apocalypse]

If I remember correctly MechCommander 2 had limited ammo on some weapons as well as any of the Mechwarrior games. Remember though that beam/particle weapons DO NOT require ammo and I would think that MG or its variants would also not require ammo. Just use ammo for rockets/missiles and the larger cannons.

A fare amount of games do not give you unlimited ammo for certain weapon types. In MOO (Master of Orion) games you have a limited amount of ammo. Most VTOL craft have limited range/ammo where you have to go back to the pad to rearm/refuel. Just create a supply dump structure or a resupply vehicle and you fix the problem.

Limited ammo supplies isn't a new RTS idea. People want realism in the form of shiny graphics but don't want realism in the sense of constant resupply of individual units. Thats the only reason the majority of games don't use it. If you want mass appeal you don't add things that the rush crowd doesnt want. This is supposed to be a strategy game and resupply adds to that strategy. I cant stand rush tactics... they are boring. Build a huge army and rush your opponent.... snore...

[new paradigm leader]

units retreating will leave your current battle group severely compromised and will probably be it's death especially with warzone's traffic jam tendencies. i didnt say it would be Warzone's ruin i meant not many would play the mod myself id give it a go but i feel the idea of this is already present enough and it is highly unrealistic for cannon and rockets to use ammo and Mg's not to.

on the matter of rush tactics... i'm not a user of rush tactics i prefer to spend my early resources on securing my game position then expand from there using manoeuvres that catch the enemy off guard. on a separate note it would sadly also render scavs unviable as their weapons and units are not powerful enough to survive returning to reload.

finally im not condemning i am playing Devil's advocate
its a feat of coding and if you manage it then well done

Yours

NPL

[Avestron]

@ Lord Apocalypse

Yes non-RTS games tend to have ammunition limits installed - but then again they aren't RTS even if the flavour may be similar.

Yes I plan to make energy weapons able to regenerate gradually while on the field as per engine power but do not be surprised if their stats are balanced in other ways (either in power or in terms of capacity of 'shots' per slot) is revised downwards as a result of a new niche.

I've also been wondering about rush tactis. They work well - too well - and it has led me to wonder if it would also be better for trucks to have resource carry limits. This could lead to there being advantages to be had in having a tracked python truck rather than a hover bug truck, the former able to carry 4x the load. This would delay rush tactics because it is likely that any advanced defensive structure or three would not be able to sustain themselves if too far removed from support. Even if a player were to build 4 MGtowers in an enemy base they would first deplete their initial stockpil and then fire at a rate equal to replenishment - which might not be so hot at that stage of the game.

It won't kill rush as MG towers guarding central derricks would still have an important role - just the cheaper part of rush.

- - -

@ New Paradigm Leader

I agree that all weapons, including energy weapons (battery banks) have some form of ammunition limitation. A machine gun will pack many more rounds per ammunition slot than a heavy cannon might - and I do think that it would be a good idea for me to attempt a conceptual rebalance before actual coding (since I'm a lot less competent in coding than I'd like to be).

I must have misunderstood you when you refered to ruin.

I must admit that I have never really seen scavengers as being a viable faction - they always seemed as flavour - experience fodder - if I may say so. That being said, I cannot comment on whether this mod would kill scavengers but I suspect that an increase in speed would allow scavengers better survival chances.

I'm happy to see some interest ^_^ I do have one concern however - do any coders think that there would be a danger that any such variant would be left in the dust of a new version of the core WZ? (2.3, etc)?

[Per]

I'm happy to see some interest ^_^ I do have one concern however - do any coders think that there would be a danger that any such variant would be left in the dust of a new version of the core WZ? (2.3, etc)?

I am not sure what you are asking. It is obvious that what you are talking about above will need a lot of source code changes. If those changes are not folded into the same development tree as our distribution, then you will have to maintain your own development tree and roll your own binaries. That is a ton of work.

Frankly, I think you are way underestimating the amount of work involved in what you are describing. You should pick one feature and implement that first to get an idea of how much work it is and as a learning experience, then go from there. I'd recommend starting with a feature that can be integrated with the wz2100.net development tree, unlike limited ammo which has been rejected in the past and I think would be unlikely to ever go in.

[psychopompos]

unlike limited ammo which has been rejected in the past and I think would be unlikely to ever go in.

pity that
i wouldnt mind limited ammo in the least...
the realsim aspect would be a nice option to have imo.

[Avestron]

@ Per - Yes I was in fact referring to the danger of any work becoming void in the wake of newer core versions. Thank you for clarifying.

I may appear unrealistic in my outlook - I am very aware that what I speak of in many cases (ok all cases) is way over my head. I talk about them nonetheless. ^_^

-

I'm not fully convinced that ammunition and resupply has no place in the WZ core source. Not for one moment do I think that ammunition should become core to the game as it would change the game to a degree more than sufficient to sway the interest of the most ardent WZ fan.

I'll have to think it through further - Am leaning toward pre game options as being part of a potential solution (which might extend in application to other mods).

I admit that I am all talk at this time. It cannot be helped.

[new paradigm leader]

I must admit that I have never really seen scavengers as being a viable faction - they always seemed as flavour - experience fodder - if I may say so. That being said, I cannot comment on whether this mod would kill scavengers but I suspect that an increase in speed would allow scavengers better survival chances.

Maybe the work being done in Warschool and the new vehicle gfx will sway this as the unrealised potential of scavengers is unsurpassed. every faction in warzone is a scavenger to be literal with the term.
the idea i like best is to give scavengers tank chassis in later levels so as to make them truly viable as lets face it scavs would also have obtained military hardware not just the project, collective, nexus and NP. also if they are given the capability to bolster the strength of ruins added to by the ability to garrison their infantry with firing capability thy would be too powerful to deal with effectively the problem is everyone down plays their strength e.g. they do not use synaptic link and as such are less susceptible to the Nexus intruder program than any other faction (with the exception of NP advanced research)