Beta 4 AI Poor

[nullack]

I started up a single player vs AI game using the small startup map. Once I got the satellite view I noticed the AI had a bunch of trucks sitting there together doing nothing. Then in another area was a truck continually doing circles. I played a defensive strategy and noticed the AI failed to get beyond a poor strategy. It never launched aircraft and every now and then would send land cannon fodder for my defenses to obliterate - never learning that was not going to work in the numbers it was trying. The AI failed to build any advanced unit types. Overall the AI is poor atleast on this map.

[Per]

at least on this map.

Which map?

[Zarel]

at least on this map.

Which map?

"Startup"

It's a tiny two-player map.

[madfalcon81]

try ziggurat... u wont be dissapointed by AI

[Buginator]

The stock AI isn't that adaptive.
It likes wide open spaces, and lots of oil to make for a challenge, but even then... meh.

Aivolution on the other hand...

[Troman]

Warzone AI suffers from pathfinding a lot, but it can change soon, I have heard per is on it.

[fisk0]

I don't know if it's the Aivolution or standard AI that sometimes shout for help and such, but one thing about that AI annoys me, I always try to help them out when I have any units to spare, but whenever I ask them for help they say "Bug off" or "I don't have any units", even if they have.

[Troman]

I don't know if it's the Aivolution or standard AI that sometimes shout for help and such, but one thing about that AI annoys me, I always try to help them out when I have any units to spare, but whenever I ask them for help they say "Bug off" or "I don't have any units", even if they have.

It is stock AI, it will only help if enemies are inside your base.

[ThunderBuns]

The AI is horrible, to put it bluntly, even with AIVolution. They're so incredibly easy to conqure. Sure, with AIVolution AI turned all the way up, they rush a few units at me, but it's nothing like what they should be doing. Warzone is such a gigantic game with so many untis to micromanage and so many techs to micro as well, this should be the game where the AI can completely dominate without cheating, seeing as I can only work on a unit at a time (and I sometimes forget units). I played against 3 AIs, all on the same team, they didn't stand a chance, sadly =\ This is WITH AIVolution. Something needs to be improved.

[Raem_Lylar]

I tackled the path finding and also improved the AI, it also doesn't cheat in my patch. My changes take up too much memory however so i will not give you guys the patch.

I fixed path finding and the AI's stupid strategies, it also wont build in small areas anymore preventing "road blocks".
I altered the code so that friendly units pass through each other, so that units going in opposite directions through a choke point wont cause a blockage, please note this does not affect the games hit system(some minor accuracy problems).

I also fixed multi turrets, made it so a wrench pops up above auto repairing units, and made it so that vtols auto repair and auto reload(without rearm pads, but much much slower).

I also rebalanced VTOL bombs so that they actually do what they are meant to do.

And to kick it all off i added a new tech that is only available after researching everything else, SHIELDS! (taking from red alert(iron curtain, except green in wz)

Because of the coding i used and the copy righted application i cannot legally submit this patch to you guys. But I'm trying to get permission, don't count on my fixes being made available though. This patch/mod was more for personal use because of the crappy AI and PF.

And yes i know i said i would never touch wz's source code(if you remember me that is), but it was just beggin for someone to fix it!

EDIT: I also fixed some cheat and debug related bugs and crashes. (im a cheater!)
EDIT2: It seems that there is something corrupting saved games, im looking into this(beta4 not my patch, campaign doesnt work in my patch at all:( ). Note: Internet Explorer 8 sucks! Dont download it!

[Rman Virgil]

-------------------->

* It's too bad you can't submit these changes - at least as of now.

* However, it is great to know that these improvements are
very possible and, IMO, these changes are very exciting
to contemplate playing with.

* I hope you can permission to share.

* If not, I still would like to thank you for what you've been able to
accomplish.

* Quick question - while you may be prohibited from releasing the
whole of what you have achieved... are there any "parts" that you would be free
to reveal ?

- Regards, RV

[Alpha93]

Ai with AiVolution it's even worser...

[Buginator]

I tackled the path finding and also improved the AI, it also doesn't cheat in my patch. My changes take up too much memory however so i will not give you guys the patch.

What is too much memory 10MB? 100MB? Memory is cheap nowadays. Still would like to see it.

I fixed path finding and the AI's stupid strategies, it also wont build in small areas anymore preventing "road blocks".
I altered the code so that friendly units pass through each other, so that units going in opposite directions through a choke point wont cause a blockage, please note this does not affect the games hit system(some minor accuracy problems).

Hmm, I guess that is one way to handle it, although it would look pretty silly for units to pass through each other. But, if you fixed the path finding, then how do they get stuck in a choke point in the first place? Or do you mean, that is how you 'fixed' the path finding?

I also fixed multi turrets, made it so a wrench pops up above auto repairing units, and made it so that vtols auto repair and auto reload(without rearm pads, but much much slower).

Just what part of the multi turrets did you fix? Targeting, or something else?

I also rebalanced VTOL bombs so that they actually do what they are meant to do.

Surely, you can show us this, after all, it is only a text file...

And to kick it all off i added a new tech that is only available after researching everything else, SHIELDS! (taking from red alert(iron curtain, except green in wz)

Got any screen shots, so we can see what this effect looks like? My shields were just a sphere around the units, but they looked stupid.

Because of the coding i used and the copy righted application i cannot legally submit this patch to you guys. But I'm trying to get permission, don't count on my fixes being made available though. This patch/mod was more for personal use because of the crappy AI and PF.

And yes i know i said i would never touch wz's source code(if you remember me that is), but it was just beggin for someone to fix it!

Hmm... Just what copyrighted stuff did you use? Are we talking data structures, new rendering engine, or just what?
You can still distribute the .exe though right? You have me highly curious.

EDIT: I also fixed some cheat and debug related bugs and crashes. (im a cheater!)

Which ones? A patch for this shouldn't have any copyrighted stuff in it...

EDIT2: It seems that there is something corrupting saved games, im looking into this(beta4 not my patch, campaign doesnt work in my patch at all:( ). Note: Internet Explorer 8 sucks! Dont download it!

B4 is corrupting your savegames? It seems to work OK on this end, can you give any more details?

[Raem_Lylar]

MY REPLIES IN RED

I tackled the path finding and also improved the AI, it also doesn't cheat in my patch. My changes take up too much memory however so i will not give you guys the patch.

What is too much memory 10MB? 100MB? Memory is cheap nowadays. Still would like to see it.

Well the problem here is that it raises the games minimum system requirements.

I fixed path finding and the AI's stupid strategies, it also wont build in small areas anymore preventing "road blocks".
I altered the code so that friendly units pass through each other, so that units going in opposite directions through a choke point wont cause a blockage, please note this does not affect the games hit system(some minor accuracy problems).

Hmm, I guess that is one way to handle it, although it would look pretty silly for units to pass through each other. But, if you fixed the path finding, then how do they get stuck in a choke point in the first place? Or do you mean, that is how you 'fixed' the path finding?

Units will get stuck if units are both advancing and retreating through a choke point simultaneously, even with path finding fixed.

I also fixed multi turrets, made it so a wrench pops up above auto repairing units, and made it so that vtols auto repair and auto reload(without rearm pads, but much much slower).

Just what part of the multi turrets did you fix? Targeting, or something else?

Targeting, they shoot what you tell them to, i also enabled support for weapon/system combinations. (imagine artillery with its own sensor!)
Multi-turrets also have to be researched before use.

I also rebalanced VTOL bombs so that they actually do what they are meant to do.

Surely, you can show us this, after all, it is only a text file...

I changed much more then text files... i changed hard coded stuff as well, the text file is useless with out the code changes.

And to kick it all off i added a new tech that is only available after researching everything else, SHIELDS! (taking from red alert(iron curtain, except green in wz)

Got any screen shots, so we can see what this effect looks like? My shields were just a sphere around the units, but they looked stupid.

The units simply glow green, i used the games built in plasma animations from the nexus plasma mortar. (it also looks stupid... but hey you want shields whatcha gunna do?) EDIT: It looks like your units are on fire from flame weapons but the fire is green.

Because of the coding i used and the copy righted application i cannot legally submit this patch to you guys. But I'm trying to get permission, don't count on my fixes being made available though. This patch/mod was more for personal use because of the crappy AI and PF.

And yes i know i said i would never touch wz's source code(if you remember me that is), but it was just begging for someone to fix it!

Hmm... Just what copyrighted stuff did you use? Are we talking data structures, new rendering engine, or just what?
You can still distribute the .exe though right? You have me highly curious.

I changed the games engine, it is property of Microsoft Game Studios, i cannot give out anything i created using it. And i attempted these changes with wz current engine and it was an epic fail. I also changed the language to something experimental MGS is working on.

EDIT: I also fixed some cheat and debug related bugs and crashes. (I'm a cheater!)

Which ones? A patch for this shouldn't have any copyrighted stuff in it...

If you take over an AI player and delete that players building or command that players units the game will crash eventually afterwords. To the system the structure is still there, so when it goes to search for it and it doesn't find it... well... CRASH!

EDIT2: It seems that there is something corrupting saved games, I'm looking into this(beta4 not my patch, campaign doesn't work in my patch at all:( ). Note: Internet Explorer 8 sucks! Don't download it!

B4 is corrupting your save games? It seems to work OK on this end, can you give any more details?

Its present in your new source code, very hard to replicate, its an uncommon bug and extremely rare, i played through campaign around 8 times in 1 day and encountered the error with only one save game, it loads but everything is messed, structure placement, units, rendering, and then finally CRASH.

I am still trying to get permission but it is unlikely because of the engines classified nature, in fact i don't think I'm supposed to tell any one about it.
The engine works with warzone because its designed for warzone. (/hint hint| lets just say in 5-10 years you will forget all about warzone 2100, to experience a 3100.)

EDIT: Corrupted saved games are caused by overwriting the same file every time. Always using the same file in other words, never creating new ones.
This is un-fixable. You will just have to warn people to NEVER overwrite.

[EvilGuru]

verisimilitude |ˈvɛrɪsɪˈmɪlɪtjuːd|
noun
the appearance of being true or real : the detail gives the novel some verisimilitude.

Or a lack thereof it would appear. Ever heard the phrase "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"?

Porting the game to a new language/engine specially designed for Warzone which you aren't meant to tell us about but are anyway. If it really were as classified as you claim you would have had to sign an NDA before being given access to it. I can assure you, if you had signed an NDA you would know exactly what you could and could not say about it.

Lets look at some statistics shall we:

Code: Select all

freddie@freddie ~/Documents/Programming/Warzone $ sloccount src lib/
[...]
Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC)                = 239,928
Development Effort Estimate, Person-Years (Person-Months) = 63.11 (757.35)
 (Basic COCOMO model, Person-Months = 2.4 * (KSLOC**1.05))
Schedule Estimate, Years (Months)                         = 2.59 (31.05)
 (Basic COCOMO model, Months = 2.5 * (person-months**0.38))
Estimated Average Number of Developers (Effort/Schedule)  = 24.39
Total Estimated Cost to Develop                           = $ 8,525,632
 (average salary = $56,286/year, overhead = 2.40).
SLOCCount, Copyright (C) 2001-2004 David A. Wheeler
SLOCCount is Open Source Software/Free Software, licensed under the GNU GPL.
SLOCCount comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY, and you are welcome to
redistribute it under certain conditions as specified by the GNU GPL license;
see the documentation for details.
Please credit this data as "generated using David A. Wheeler's 'SLOCCount'."

As you can see Warzone comes in at around 240,000 lines of code, excluding blanks and comments. Porting it would be a monumental effort to say the least.

Furthermore, it is almost certain that this version would be a derived work (using the Warzone data and based off of the beta-4/2.1/trunk source tree) and so would also be GNU GPL (as it is viral in nature). Thus this combined with the classified nature of the engine would mean that it is almost impossible to ever distribute. No one ports 240,000 lines of code just for personal use — same way 1Kg of cocaine is not for personal use.

Anyone can make outlandish claims and come up with elaborate reasons about why they can not or are not allowed to substantiate them — what makes your claims more valid than anyone else's?

Regards, Freddie.