Beta 4 AI Poor

Warzone 2.1.x series. (Unsupported--read only!)
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Rman Virgil
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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by Rman Virgil » 13 Sep 2008, 15:16

* Quick question - while you may be prohibited from releasing the
whole of what you have achieved... are there any "parts" that you would be free
to reveal ?
* I was thinking several things that wouldn't violate an NDA.

* Bug mentioned one related to modified WZ stats/.txt files.

* Another would be the WZ A.I. scripts. I would think those would not fall under an NDA.
That is unless your saying a whole new scripting engine and language was created.

- Regards, RV
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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by Giel » 13 Sep 2008, 23:37

Raem_Lylar wrote:I tackled the path finding and also improved the AI, it also doesn't cheat in my patch. My changes take up too much memory however so i will not give you guys the patch.

I fixed path finding and the AI's stupid strategies, it also wont build in small areas anymore preventing "road blocks".
I altered the code so that friendly units pass through each other, so that units going in opposite directions through a choke point wont cause a blockage, please note this does not affect the games hit system(some minor accuracy problems).

....

blablablabla
The one consistent thing I'm reading in most of your posts up till now (across this entire forum, granted they're not a lot) are messages like "I fixed/improved X but I'm not going to show you or tell you how I did it". So I'm going to ask you: either quit making grand claims without backing them up by showing us the changes (by "showing" I also mean giving us permission to use them), or if that's too much to ask please stop posting to this forum.

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by Raem_Lylar » 14 Sep 2008, 00:30

Wow, such rude people... (thinks of my advisers and shudders) Please people nothing you can say will get me to spill anything.

And for your information i like to brag and i was punished for it. I cannot discuss this any further or explain anything that has occurred on this thread, do what you will.
(try to picture yourself bragging about classified stuff your working on, getting caught and then being unable to defend yourself against skeptical developers)

However my findings of the corrupted saved games i can say are true.

I will however try and make some improvements to the original code so i can actually show you guys something. (i seem to use "however" alot i noticed)
But I'm not very good with this mess you call a game...(speaking of code, not actual game, mind you.)

And its an automated program that can convert engines, script and language(like a convert wizard of sorts).

Guess i will talk to you again in a few months, because thats how long it will take me to even guess how to fix pathfinding.

Hope i cleared stuff up ':) i certainly tried to...

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by Chojun » 14 Sep 2008, 00:54

There goes the "if you don't share you are a horrible person" rhetoric again.

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by zydonk » 14 Sep 2008, 01:32

The best solution to this problem is to play v1.10. The truth is that none of the later versions can match it for quality of gameplay. The wonder is how well a 1999 3d engine can cope with the pace of modern computing. I'm pkaying on a 28inch monitor with a 9600 card, and there's no problem. Someday the "new" WZ will catch up...

Try it, you won't be sorry.

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by Buginator » 14 Sep 2008, 07:38

Raem_Lylar wrote:Wow, such rude people... (thinks of my advisers and shudders) Please people nothing you can say will get me to spill anything.
I am not so sure it is rude, it just is hard to see where are you going with this, and they have expressed themselves in the manner they saw fit.
And for your information i like to brag and i was punished for it. I cannot discuss this any further or explain anything that has occurred on this thread, do what you will.
(try to picture yourself bragging about classified stuff your working on, getting caught and then being unable to defend yourself against skeptical developers)
Yeah, we can see the bragging...which some people think is rude in itself, since it is all talk, and nothing to show for it. You can't say you expected anything more, without at least showing something, be it a screen shot, or whatever.
However my findings of the corrupted saved games i can say are true.
*What* findings? I haven't seen anything? "its an uncommon bug and extremely rare" doesn't give us much info...
I will however try and make some improvements to the original code so i can actually show you guys something. (i seem to use "however" alot i noticed)
But I'm not very good with this mess you call a game...(speaking of code, not actual game, mind you.)
Heh, well, the source is still mostly all pumpkin in the critical areas. Not the best source code to work from, but then again, not the worst either.
And its an automated program that can convert engines, script and language(like a convert wizard of sorts).
Even the best conversion software would have a heck of a time understanding, let alone converting warzone's source. It isn't as simple as a pascal2C converter. While the scripting could be doable via a converter, the engine itself? That would take one heck of a heuristic algorithm, unless we are talking some kind of a straight 1:1 port?
Guess i will talk to you again in a few months, because thats how long it will take me to even guess how to fix pathfinding.
O_o Eh? You said you fixed it, and now you have to guess how to fix it?
Hope i cleared stuff up ':) i certainly tried to...
Um, no, you added more confusion. :-S
Well the problem here is that it raises the games minimum system requirements.
That don't matter. Really. Still would like to see it!
Units will get stuck if units are both advancing and retreating through a choke point simultaneously, even with path finding fixed.
Then how is the path finding fixed? If you have units going both ways down a narrow lane, then the path finding should make a new route for all the units to follow in the correct direction. If they can't then they should move off to another area, and wait there.
Targeting, they shoot what you tell them to, i also enabled support for weapon/system combinations. (imagine artillery with its own sensor!) Multi-turrets also have to be researched before use.
Sounds good. The original code was in no way finished. How did you tackle the design limitations?
I changed much more then text files... i changed hard coded stuff as well, the text file is useless with out the code changes.
I don't think it would be useless, you modified the damage values to balance it out.
The units simply glow green, i used the games built in plasma animations from the nexus plasma mortar. (it also looks stupid... but hey you want shields whatcha gunna do?) EDIT: It looks like your units are on fire from flame weapons but the fire is green.
Hmm, so they all look like they are in a green colored flame? What kind of frame rate hits did you get? What happens when you have lots of units on screen, all firing at each other?
I changed the games engine, it is property of Microsoft Game Studios, i cannot give out anything i created using it. And i attempted these changes with wz current engine and it was an epic fail. I also changed the language to something experimental MGS is working on.
Your using XNA? So it is either C# or F#? Or is this something else?
If you take over an AI player and delete that players building or command that players units the game will crash eventually afterwords. To the system the structure is still there, so when it goes to search for it and it doesn't find it... well... CRASH!
What do you mean by taking them over? I assume this is with the debug menu, since there really is no other way to control the AI's units...
EDIT: Corrupted saved games are caused by overwriting the same file every time. Always using the same file in other words, never creating new ones.
This is un-fixable. You will just have to warn people to NEVER overwrite.
O_o Un-fixable? It deletes the game file first, then recreates it. I did this 5 times, back to back, and it still loads/saves fine. It seems fixed to me?

Well, anyway, this turned out much longer than I thought.
If you can't show the source, or screen shots, or anything like that, you can still talk about what & how you changed it.
This is all warzone code we are talking about, and that would have nothing to do with what tools/libs you are using, so your safe in that aspect.
Most of us are here for the learning/fun aspect, so lets have a discussion on how you changed/fixed things, not with the tools/libs that you used, since that can cause issues for you.

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by Raem_Lylar » 15 Sep 2008, 00:49

That is a bit to reply to... --my replies look like this-- |marked with * are subject to change.

1: I cant show you anything! Not even screenshots! I also cannot talk about this, my superiors said so... in fact i got in a bit of trouble talking about this, the discussion is over. Here is what i can talk about and answer:

"Even the best conversion software would have a heck of a time understanding, let alone converting warzone's source. It isn't as simple as a pascal2C converter. While the scripting could be doable via a converter, the engine itself? That would take one heck of a heuristic algorithm, unless we are talking some kind of a straight 1:1 port?"
--You are correct*.--

"Eh? You said you fixed it, and now you have to guess how to fix it?"
--I already explained my fixes are of the converted code into the new engine, I'm now working on fixing the pathfinding in the old engine and language* (in my free time, which i don't have much of)--

"Then how is the path finding fixed? If you have units going both ways down a narrow lane, then the path finding should make a new route for all the units to follow in the correct direction. If they can't then they should move off to another area, and wait there."
--Pathfinding is fixed as in units move where you tell them when you tell them. That doesn't stop them from colliding with eachother, having them pass through eachother is faster and easier than truly fixing pathfinding*(thats MGS for you, taking shortcuts like that, hope i don't get fired for saying that...)--

"Hmm, so they all look like they are in a green colored flame? What kind of frame rate hits did you get? What happens when you have lots of units on screen, all firing at each other?"
--It looks as though you slowed the games speed...what you did you expect from such a thing*?--
EDIT: I forgot to mention the color of the sheild is the same as the team color, it is green in campaign because the proJect is green*.


"Your using XNA? So it is either C# or F#? Or is this something else?"
-- i am using X-#=+++ you will see this more in 2-3 years*.(and right now its not pretty, but its user and system friendly(-, & = are version indicators to make the version of X+++ readable by the hardware)--

"What do you mean by taking them over? I assume this is with the debug menu, since there really is no other way to control the AI's units..."
--I did say those were cheat and debug menu fixes didn't i?--

" Un-fixable? It deletes the game file first, then recreates it. I did this 5 times, back to back, and it still loads/saves fine. It seems fixed to me?"
--This i can explain since it was a problem(in the case of your builds, still is a problem)with your build of wz. After many repeated saves to the same file,(it does delete it of course, but the save name remains saved by the system)it will have an error and add the save data to the chosen save file instead of delete and replace.--

Now i have cleared everything up, right?
And please dont rely on me to fix anything for you, since i aint got the time*...

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by Buginator » 15 Sep 2008, 05:47

Raem_Lylar wrote:That is a bit to reply to... --my replies look like this-- |marked with * are subject to change.

1: I cant show you anything! Not even screenshots! I also cannot talk about this, my superiors said so... in fact i got in a bit of trouble talking about this, the discussion is over. Here is what i can talk about and answer:

"Even the best conversion software would have a heck of a time understanding, let alone converting warzone's source. It isn't as simple as a pascal2C converter. While the scripting could be doable via a converter, the engine itself? That would take one heck of a heuristic algorithm, unless we are talking some kind of a straight 1:1 port?"
--You are correct*.--

"Eh? You said you fixed it, and now you have to guess how to fix it?"
--I already explained my fixes are of the converted code into the new engine, I'm now working on fixing the pathfinding in the old engine and language* (in my free time, which i don't have much of)--

"Then how is the path finding fixed? If you have units going both ways down a narrow lane, then the path finding should make a new route for all the units to follow in the correct direction. If they can't then they should move off to another area, and wait there."
--Pathfinding is fixed as in units move where you tell them when you tell them. That doesn't stop them from colliding with eachother, having them pass through eachother is faster and easier than truly fixing pathfinding*(thats MGS for you, taking shortcuts like that, hope i don't get fired for saying that...)--

"Hmm, so they all look like they are in a green colored flame? What kind of frame rate hits did you get? What happens when you have lots of units on screen, all firing at each other?"
--It looks as though you slowed the games speed...what you did you expect from such a thing*?--
EDIT: I forgot to mention the color of the sheild is the same as the team color, it is green in campaign because the proJect is green*.


"Your using XNA? So it is either C# or F#? Or is this something else?"
-- i am using X-#=+++ you will see this more in 2-3 years*.(and right now its not pretty, but its user and system friendly(-, & = are version indicators to make the version of X+++ readable by the hardware)--

"What do you mean by taking them over? I assume this is with the debug menu, since there really is no other way to control the AI's units..."
--I did say those were cheat and debug menu fixes didn't i?--

" Un-fixable? It deletes the game file first, then recreates it. I did this 5 times, back to back, and it still loads/saves fine. It seems fixed to me?"
--This i can explain since it was a problem(in the case of your builds, still is a problem)with your build of wz. After many repeated saves to the same file,(it does delete it of course, but the save name remains saved by the system)it will have an error and add the save data to the chosen save file instead of delete and replace.--

Now i have cleared everything up, right?
And please dont rely on me to fix anything for you, since i aint got the time*...



Ok. :|
If you do ever do something that you can show us, then you know where we are at.

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by Raem_Lylar » 16 Sep 2008, 20:12

Do you know any place i can go to learn C thats free? All i know is all the new stuff...

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by EvilGuru » 16 Sep 2008, 20:43

Raem_Lylar wrote:Do you know any place i can go to learn C thats free? All i know is all the new stuff...
I could tell you, but I am under an NDA, sure you know what it's like and all. They will probably become public in 2-3 years.

On a serious note I recommend buying a copy of K&R "The C Programming Language" (ISBN: 0131103628). It is by far the best reference on the language. It can also be picked up quite cheaply nowadays second hand.

Regards, Freddie.

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by Raem_Lylar » 16 Sep 2008, 21:14

EvilGuru wrote:
Raem_Lylar wrote:Do you know any place i can go to learn C thats free? All i know is all the new stuff...
I could tell you, but I am under an NDA, sure you know what it's like and all. They will probably become public in 2-3 years.

On a serious note I recommend buying a copy of K&R "The C Programming Language" (ISBN: 0131103628). It is by far the best reference on the language. It can also be picked up quite cheaply nowadays second hand.

Regards, Freddie.
I will look into that.

And "I could tell you, but I am under an NDA, sure you know what it's like and all. They will probably become public in 2-3 years." Was un-called for... unless you are seriously under an NDA, in which case i apologize.

And a friendly question:
Do any of you have XBox Live accounts? Or PSN accounts? [sarcasm]Oh, and thank you for being so nice and kind[/sarcasm] But seriously, your all alright i guess... just being typical humans...

(I will have you know, I'm a Pacifist, Naturalist, Developmentist, Idealist, Spiritualist, and i love peace, harmony, justice and order. Just to give you an idea of my personality, which you probably didn't care about anyways... (and i practically worship Light, as in the Light Side and im very Religious/Righteous)

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by Giel » 16 Sep 2008, 21:51

Raem_Lylar wrote:Wow, such rude people... (thinks of my advisers and shudders) Please people nothing you can say will get me to spill anything.
Rude? You want to know what I think is rude? People wasting other people's time just because they like to brag... The one thing almost all open source projects (and we're one...) have in common is that time is the scarcest resource. And now you seem to have decided to waste our time just so you can boost your ego by bragging and not making good for it.
Raem_Lylar wrote:And for your information i like to brag and i was punished for it. I cannot discuss this any further or explain anything that has occurred on this thread, do what you will.
(try to picture yourself bragging about classified stuff your working on, getting caught and then being unable to defend yourself against skeptical developers)
I'll be the first to admit that I do plenty of bragging myself, but I also feel bound to live up to what I'm bragging about... And I try not to come up with lame excuses. You might have tried some medical excuse, that'd work a lot better than an NDA. If you signed an NDA then you're probably more likely a hazard to open source projects, in the field covered by that NDA, than a benefit.
Raem_Lylar wrote:And its an automated program that can convert engines, script and language(like a convert wizard of sorts).
Oh dear... This sounds a lot like the "programmers aren't needed anymore" hype from some decades ago (the era that spawned UML tools among other). Warzone's "engine" is not an "engine" in the sense that it's some kind of central piece of code that I could point right at in the sources. In fact Warzone's "engine" is completely intermixed with most other code of Warzone. Some people might describe it as "spagetthi" (or some other kind of pasta).

Raem_Lylar wrote:"Even the best conversion software would have a heck of a time understanding, let alone converting warzone's source. It isn't as simple as a pascal2C converter. While the scripting could be doable via a converter, the engine itself? That would take one heck of a heuristic algorithm, unless we are talking some kind of a straight 1:1 port?"
--You are correct*.--

"Eh? You said you fixed it, and now you have to guess how to fix it?"
--I already explained my fixes are of the converted code into the new engine, I'm now working on fixing the pathfinding in the old engine and language* (in my free time, which i don't have much of)--
Funny, here goes the same "I have this magic tool that makes your software for you" rhetoric again.

And then I read this:
Raem_Lylar wrote:Do you know any place i can go to learn C thats free? All i know is all the new stuff...
And suddenly I realised it: you're calendar is just off and you're trying to pull of an April's foolsday joke!

If not, then I hope you understand that you do not appear very credible. Especially not when you just admit to not even know the programming language which warzone is mostly entirely programmed in (92%+). Even though at the same time you claim that your doing all these kinds of "fixes" and "improvements".

In fact your "I've fixed/improved X, but I'm not going to show or tell you how" rhetoric looks very similar to blackmail to me, with as only exception that in blackmail it is common to let the entity that you blackmail know what you want from them. In either case, whether I know what you want or not: I do not like blackmail. So either try to take a more humble stance in your communications to us, or just stop communicating...

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by Buginator » 19 Sep 2008, 05:41

Raem_Lylar wrote:Do you know any place i can go to learn C thats free? All i know is all the new stuff...
The new stuff is based off the old stuff for the most part. If you know C++ or C# or whatever, you should be able to read a few online tutorials on C, and get up to speed pretty quickly.

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by dmx » 20 Sep 2008, 20:40

I'm just going to put this out here, that this thread is unintentionally hilarious.

Anyway, never mind me, back to lurking over in the mac beta thread.... What I'm doing there... It is secret and If I told you, youd have to sign an NDA :ninja:

xD
(Just kidding)

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Re: Beta 4 AI Poor

Post by Raem_Lylar » 22 Sep 2008, 22:11

dmx wrote:I'm just going to put this out here, that this thread is unintentionally hilarious.

Anyway, never mind me, back to lurking over in the mac beta thread.... What I'm doing there... It is secret and If I told you, youd have to sign an NDA :ninja:

xD
(Just kidding)
Haha, very funny. But needless spam.

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