[MOD]Balance & start options/Proposals for options & balance

Did you create a mod, map, music, or a tool? Present them here and earn feedback!
Note: addon requests do not belong here.
Note, everything uploaded to this forum, MUST have a license!
Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

[MOD]Balance & start options/Proposals for options & balance

Post by Reg312 » 20 Aug 2011, 16:25

[MOD] High oil balance and new start options
screenshot_small.png
MOD 1: Start options (without balance changes)

MOD 2: Balance + Start options



Briefly about MOD:
Its original game with small balance changes and with new useful game options (peace time, tech levels etc.).
You dont need change your game strategy but u can effective use more various weapons and buildings than before. Most changes are related to the late stage of the game.
Mod designed for high oil games with experienced players.

Main problems, which i want solve with adjusting balance:
1) Most of weapons and buildings never get used in most games
Example1: u no need rail gun beacuse you can build more artillery, which much more efficient
Example2: all what u really need to research after 30th minute - is archangels
Example3: You don't need any defense except fortresses and artillery (and AA), dozens of defense structures never get in use
2) Artillery and vtols too strong, tank armies are usable only in game beginning (up to 30th minute at high oil maps)

Mod provides:

1. Some unusable stuff becomes better (T3 bodies and weapons, lasers, wheels etc.)
2. Nerf overpowered stuff: ground shakers, thermal bombs, cannon frotresses.
3. Added new useful game options (aviable from structure limit screen):
option 1: new! Peace time also known as build time which host can set in structure limit screen
If enemy breaks the border, he will be punished
option 2: new! "no defenses" - option to set defense limit from 255 to 0 (for each def. building)
option 3: Artillery and fortresses limit from 0 to 255
option 4: New technoly levels:
T1 - start with technologies like with adavanced base
T1.5 - tech level between T1 and T2 (medium cannon and lancer aviable and some other upgrades)
T4 - tech level when most of things researched but still need 40 minutes to complete research
T5 - tech level "RESEARCHED ALL"
option 5: initial amount of power: 5 000, 20 000, 100 000
option 6: Reveal map new!
-Reveal map for 2 seconds - very good for low-oil games to know players and oil positions
-Reveal map - see what your enemies doing all game


Downloads:
MOD1: Start options, verion 3
Only start options without any balance changes
Mod to load WZ with http://www.mediafire.com/file/54mwz6k59 ... ns3.mod.wz
Map-Mods with start options mod:
High-oil maps:
NTWMax2 map with StartOptions Mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/qnx5yl14j ... ax2_op3.wz
SquaredV9 map with StartOptions Mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/du4bd1os9 ... dV9_op3.wz
TeamDuel map with StartOptions Mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/0h5yxi6jw ... uel_op3.wz
Domination map with StartOptions Mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/545g4j4c8 ... ion_op3.wz
ColosseumWZ map with StartOptions Mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/epf01ny4w ... mWZ_op3.wz
Low-oil maps:
Rush map with StartOptions Mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/3qsi9yvts ... ush_op3.wz
GreatRift map with StartOptions Mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/z3bn3iluu ... ift_op3.wz
Vision_X2 map with StartOptions Mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/6cdx5xjo5 ... nX2_op3.wz
MizaMaze map with StartOptions Mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/jb8bhjwfh ... aze_op3.wz
Abandoned map with StartOptions Mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/fs1cgz5zt ... ned_op3.wz

MOD2: Balance + Start options, verion 8
High-oil maps:
NTWMax2 + balance mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/sw9654d4f ... x2_bal8.wz
SquaredV9 + balance mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/fdefkcx7h ... V9_bal8.wz
TeamDuel + balance mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/n21j7c8pp ... el_bal8.wz
Domination + balance mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/8x0f0oyhh ... on_bal8.wz
ColosseumWZ + balance mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/q6y7b0ae0 ... WZ_bal8.wz

Low-oil maps:
Rush + balance mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/z77ubbdhs ... sh_bal8.wz
GreatRift + balance mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/jov0hbeve ... ft_bal8.wz
Vision_X2 + balance mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/egg71bsqh ... X2_bal8.wz
MizaMaze + balance mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/tl79aau6a ... ze_bal8.wz
Abandoned + balance mod: http://www.mediafire.com/file/8zbedsje8 ... oned_b8.wz

Note: you dont need install mod, just copy modded maps in WZ map folder and play

Current mod version: 8
Known problems:
Problem 1: before installing map you have to remove all previous versions of this map-mod
Problem 2: map-mods conflict with each other. If you see strange labels instead game options this means what some other mod was loaded in WZ first. You have to remove all another map-mods.
Problem 3: Incompatible with last version of Iluvalar's Mod
WZ version: 2.3.8

Iluvalar's NRS Mod + start options on NTW map:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/73zw6ya65 ... s16_op3.wz

Balance changes in detail

List of changed parameters (stats) here http://www.mediafire.com/file/9md69q9jt ... _stats.txt
change log: http://www.mediafire.com/file/4nhssd3nf ... ngelog.txt

1) Problem: Most of T3 weapons total unusable
Solutions:
- decreased build time of all T3 weapons (20%)
- lasers improved (by build time)

2) Problem: light and medium bodies used rarely. In most cases all players use heavy bodies beacuse its better
Solution: improve all medium and light bodies (better speed, less cost)

3) Problem: Fortresses makes impossible to break defense with tanks.
Bunker busters can help, but what to do if you use cannons and not upgrade rockets?
Solutions:
- decrease range and splash damage of cannon fortress
- slighty decrease other fortresses
Cannon Fortress = 4 heavy cannons hardpoints? but in original WZ 2.3.8 cannon fortress have twice effectiveness than 4 heavy cannon hardpoints

4) Problem: Artillery very strong (high oil maps!)
player who was not built artillery have not any chances against player with artillery.
some players dont know how use artillery propertly but for expierenced players is fact that artillery too strong
Solutions:
- decrease damage and range for howitzer, ground shaker, hellstorm, incendiary howitzer (15%)
- new game option - able to set artillery limit from 0 to 255 (use structure limit screen)
Ripple rockets was not nerfed because this kind of artillery not so effective.

5) Problem:Thermal vtol bombs are very strong (high oil maps!)
Solutions: rebalance all vtol weapons and AA
see here: http://www.mediafire.com/file/pd23ge20j ... ancing.txt

6) Problem: Wheeled propulsion total not usable (less hp, gets more damage)
Solutions: increase stats of wheeled propulsion: HP, speed, build time
Also was slighty improved half-tracks and tracks

7) Propulsion&Weapon modifiers not affect Incendiary Damage
Solutions:
- slighty decrease Incendiary Damage for Incendiary Mortar and Incendiary Howitzer
- greatly decrease Incendiary Damage for plasmite, thermite bombs
flamer's Incendiary Damage not changed

8) Other small changes for interest :)
- make tank traps better usable (decreased price, increased HP)
- make towers better (decrease price, decrease build time)
- adjust all vtol-weapons like VTOL flashlight (are you hear about this weapon before?)
- Plasmite Bombs becomes artillery bombs (it was all rounder bombs such as cannon round)
- adjuct cannons and rocket balace (slighty improve cannons at early stage)
- greatly improve wyvern and gragon bodies
- new grey wall "Collective Wall" which have more defense but consumes much more power and build slower than common wall
- tracked propulsion slighty improved
- AA flak cannon improved (will not destroy your base)
- flashlight not replaced by pulse laser, you can use both weapons at same time

9) Problem: need much time to research highest technology level
Solutions: make slider for technology level in structure limit screen

Illustration of peace time logic:
pt1.png
pt1.png (12.15 KiB) Viewed 4578 times
pt2.png
pt2.png (25.83 KiB) Viewed 4578 times
Last edited by Reg312 on 11 Oct 2011, 13:49, edited 38 times in total.

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1782
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by Iluvalar » 21 Aug 2011, 06:50

Hi. Welcome to the map-modder club !

First of all good job ! That look like a pretty neat amelioration overall.

The good news you did great by adressing pretty much all the problems identified by the autobalance script i've done.
The bad news is that my autobalance script already adress pretty much all the problem you identified. :lol2:
You might want to take a look to my explanation somewhere here : viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7987

Do not be so humble ! This mod probably fit as much in low oil then in high. I believe you did a great job.

Here is however some tought :

I believe that you reduce twice the artillery... By improving overall the early bodies (wheel, light) you reduce the capacity of early turtling by the same effect. That turtling is the germ of the artillery path.

I'm also unsure by the choice of improving both wheel and light bodies. Are you sure that doesn't throw the mg viper on wheel into the god tier in early or even extra early game ?
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by Reg312 » 21 Aug 2011, 10:48

Iluvalar wrote:Hi. Welcome to the map-modder club !
Thank you, i used your manual how make map mod and discovered what wz files can be easily modded.
Iluvalar wrote:I believe that you reduce twice the artillery...
its hard to say "twice" about, i hope my mod gives more time for attack strategy.
In original 2.3.8 u can attack only up to 17th minute (high oil), then flamer mortars and lancers makes defense very hard to break
reducing artillery + improving attack weapons and bodies can give "twice" effect, but need be tested in several games with good teams.
Iluvalar wrote: I'm also unsure by the choice of improving both wheel and light bodies. Are you sure that doesn't throw the mg viper on wheel into the god tier in early or even extra early game ?
i hope so, light cannon and minirocket pod was a little improved by build time and lesser power cost.
Iluvalar wrote: You might want to take a look to my explanation somewhere here : viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7987
Do you take into account that weapons have splash, penetrating etc. effects
NRS and autobalance is a different things?
Where i can see your script? (hope it written in C-like language) :)
Last edited by Reg312 on 21 Aug 2011, 19:35, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1782
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by Iluvalar » 21 Aug 2011, 17:39

you can find the script here if you want : https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=9506c397 ... 59C968!313
it's a work in progress undocumented.

Autobalance and NRS use the same function Fwz_eval as the main guide yes.

I take a lot into account. look for yourself ;) . I take so much into account that i can blindly import new weapons from others mods and shuffle components around in any order in NRS+ mod. All line of research look playable anyway.
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

User avatar
NoQ
Special
Special
Posts: 6197
Joined: 24 Dec 2009, 11:35
Location: /var/zone

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by NoQ » 21 Aug 2011, 17:48

i don't really understand most of the changes.

Decrease howitzers but leave ripples as they are? I always thought it's howitzers that come later as counter to ripples. Now ripples become the single best choice ever.

Decrease incendiary howitzers even more? i hardly ever saw them, everybody prefers ground shakers.

Improve cannons? i had a feeling nobody uses rockets anyway.

Am i wrong to believe that? i'm not that good on high-oil, but that's what i've seen last time i tried it.

Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by Reg312 » 21 Aug 2011, 19:33

NoQ wrote: Decrease howitzers but leave ripples as they are? I always thought it's howitzers that come later as counter to ripples. Now ripples become the single best choice ever.
Ripples cant be used as defense VS tanks (esp. tracked), need 20 ripples to kill 1-2 tracked tanks.
Ripples have short splash radius
Many players making lines of ripples, but without proper defense with fortresses all ripples can be easily killed by group of tanks. But if attacking player wait while enemy make much ripples then he lose of course

Quite another thing is groud shaker and hellstorm.
20 - 30 ground shakers kills 20-30 tanks/cyborgs per hit
NoQ wrote: Decrease incendiary howitzers even more? i hardly ever saw them, everybody prefers ground shakers.
inc.howitzers is very good artillery but ground shakers have longer distance (39 vs 78)
NoQ wrote: Improve cannons? i had a feeling nobody uses rockets anyway.
in high oil games rocket tacktics always better than cannons (better range, anti--cyborg weap - MRA early, faster)
Heavy cannons can hurt rocket army, but it need much time to research, good rocket-player will not give it time
Also rocket player can research bunker busters and attack defended positions
I don't know whether or not cannons the best in low-oil games but i see many players use heavy cannons

User avatar
NoQ
Special
Special
Posts: 6197
Joined: 24 Dec 2009, 11:35
Location: /var/zone

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by NoQ » 21 Aug 2011, 19:44

in high oil games rocket tacktics always better than cannons
I guess this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the stats ... but by our skill ... with the mouse (c)

medusa
Trained
Trained
Posts: 175
Joined: 25 Jul 2011, 01:56

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by medusa » 22 Aug 2011, 01:31

Reg312 wrote: Note: you dont need install mod, just copy modded maps in Wz map folder and play
can you make a standalone version of the mod?
I don't like those maps.

User avatar
lav_coyote25
Professional
Professional
Posts: 3434
Joined: 08 Aug 2006, 23:18

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by lav_coyote25 » 22 Aug 2011, 03:43

medusa wrote:
Reg312 wrote: Note: you dont need install mod, just copy modded maps in Wz map folder and play
can you make a standalone version of the mod?
I don't like those maps.
so dont play em.... :3

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1782
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by Iluvalar » 22 Aug 2011, 06:11

medusa wrote:
Reg312 wrote: Note: you dont need install mod, just copy modded maps in Wz map folder and play
can you make a standalone version of the mod?
I don't like those maps.
ignore that it's a map and load it as a mod. it'll work.
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1782
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by Iluvalar » 10 Sep 2011, 17:31

Hey. It's me again. I'm sorry but I feel i was right about viper wheel rush. The games I played was only won this way. You build another factory and start the unit production asap. You dont convert to htrack, you dont convert to cobra (I guess this is why, until now you didn't saw the flaw... it take time to overcome such habits).
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by Reg312 » 12 Sep 2011, 08:38

Iluvalar wrote:Hey. It's me again. I'm sorry but I feel i was right about viper wheel rush. The games I played was only won this way. You build another factory and start the unit production asap. You dont convert to htrack, you dont convert to cobra (I guess this is why, until now you didn't saw the flaw... it take time to overcome such habits).
seem i have to nerf wheels, but if you want use htracks from begin wheels need be nerfed to zero stats.
wheels vulnerable to MG as compared to half-tracks.
if You see enemy making MG then You have to use htrack

anyway wheels must be usable in WZ

what gives improving wheels at early stage of the game:
1) cannons and rockets nerfed beacuse cannons and rockets do same damage to wheels and halftracks (BAD)
2) MG improved because it make good damage to improved wheels (BAD)
3) turtling nerfed beacuse player can make stronger amy earlier (GOOD)
4) turling improved beacuse cannons was nerfed in point 1) (BAD)
5) htracks nerfed because there are competing wheels (NOT BAD)

i see following ways to do with wheels:
1) increase cannon damage to wheels and slighty decrease wheels stats
2) decrease wheels stats (speed, HP, weight)
3) make half-track better (and hovers needs competitors)
4) ? thinking

User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
Posts: 1782
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by Iluvalar » 12 Sep 2011, 17:28

How about a wheel mk2 upgrade after the scorpion body ?
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by Reg312 » 13 Sep 2011, 10:51

Iluvalar wrote:How about a wheel mk2 upgrade after the scorpion body ?
i don't want to change research system, but if it could be possible i would increase maximum 450$ research cost
and i don't want to force players to learn new research tree :P
Last edited by Reg312 on 14 Sep 2011, 00:17, edited 1 time in total.

Reg312
Regular
Regular
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: [MOD] High oil balance / Proposals for the balance

Post by Reg312 » 14 Sep 2011, 00:12

i made some changes and fixed some mistakes, still hope someone would be interested :)
also introdused PEACE TIME which host can set in game options (structure limit screen)

*before using new verision of my map-mod you have to remove any old verions

version 6 changes:
- option to set limit of gauss fortresses (mass driver)
- new option "defenses limit". which limits each defense building.
- new option "Peace time" also known as build time
* - peace time can be set in structure limit screen
* - attacking units become destroyed while peace time if those units stay closer to enemy base than to own base
* - buildings become destroyed from first shot if built at enemy territory
- lowered AP damage to vtols (from 125% to 90%) beacuse lasers was too strong vs vtols
- all vtols weapons adjusted, excluding bombs and heavy laser
- wheeled propulsion slightly nerfed
- tracked propulsion slightly improved (off-road speed increased, heavy weight tanks become faster at off-road)
- half-tracks slightly improved
- AA flak cannon greatly improved (beacuse it was weak comparing to other AA weapons)

Post Reply