New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

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Lord Apocalypse
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by Lord Apocalypse »

Two theories.
1. Your machine specs
2. QT

I say QT, because QT is not optimized for game use. At least not the drawing functions. I don't know what WZ uses from the QT lib but if this is not the case you may want to be careful of what you DO use out of QT. I've seen plenty of complaints in some of the QT related forums about sluggish response times. I love QT, but i'm leary of using it for game dev beyond tool creation.

On the hardware front.. How many problems does the WZ graphics/shader code have with intel graphics cards?? I know the linux drivers are flaky when it comes to openGL and shader support.
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NoQ
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by NoQ »

I'm not having many performance problems with master, even on a rather old machine (~8 years at least), so it's hardly Qt, and devs had already replied on "Qt is not for games" somewhere down there, saying "should be fine, we know what we're doing".

The slow unit response - even in skirmish - is a bit annoying though.
Lord Apocalypse
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by Lord Apocalypse »

AI or pathfinding bottleneck? Do you know if the AI had any major reworks or the path system? The original pre source release I know could have crappy pathing issues soemtimes. I just wish I had spent more time keeping up with all the WZ changes :(
Reg312
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by Reg312 »

Discovered bugs:
1) Order delays (slow unit response). This delays better seen on fast units. Every order have small delay.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YP5VIFBcog
2) Cannot insert unit designed for another player in debug mode.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTpbilnFia0
3) Game timer is lost! return the timer!!1
4) Cannot minimize WZ. Cannot return from fullscreen mode (1024x768) to desktop (1280x1024) with alt+Esc
5) VTOLs stuck in buildings while attack by direct orders. It is not happen in patrol mode.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKBXKz2MfD0

Questions
1) What happen to thermite bomb bay? Thermite bombs make lesser damage than 2.3.8/2.3.9. Stats of themite bombs was not changed but it do lesser damage. why?? what was changed?? incendiary damage was fixed or what?
Video 2.3.8: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJdm3YJusgc
Video master: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5We9S8aRA4
2) Where i can see full changelog from 2.3x to 3.0 ?
cybersphinx
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by cybersphinx »

Lord Apocalypse wrote:I say QT, because QT is not optimized for game use. At least not the drawing functions. I don't know what WZ uses from the QT lib but if this is not the case you may want to be careful of what you DO use out of QT. I've seen plenty of complaints in some of the QT related forums about sluggish response times. I love QT, but i'm leary of using it for game dev beyond tool creation.
I don't think we use any drawing functions at the moment, just things like qtscript for scripting, something for ini files... when we used its font rendering it was slow sometimes, but with qt 4.7 it was ok. On my (Linux) system opengl performance is about the same as with sdl, others seem to have problems though.

The unit delay comes from having each system execute the same orders at the same time, that means orders are sent over the network, and can only be executed once all systems received them. That way all systems always do the same, and the game can't desync (or if it does, there's either a bug or someone cheating).
Reg312 wrote:2) Where i can see full changelog from 2.3x to 3.0 ?
Recent changes are in the changelog, but there's a quite large gap where nobody updated it: https://github.com/Warzone2100/warzone2 ... geLog#L128 - volunteers welcome. "git log 173488dcbc626830478e259c5d1da5f7defea6a2..master_20110320qt" should show them all, it's almost 4000 changes though.
We want information... information... information.
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Iluvalar
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by Iluvalar »

Reg312 wrote:Discovered bugs:
1) Order delays (slow unit response). This delays better seen on fast units. Every order have small delay.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YP5VIFBcog
hmmm... and you are lucky you play in single player. That delay increase with the ping of everyone.

It is the perfect synch in action. They told me it's a feature not a bug,
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.
Reg312
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by Reg312 »

Iluvalar wrote:
Reg312 wrote:Discovered bugs:
1) Order delays (slow unit response). This delays better seen on fast units. Every order have small delay.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YP5VIFBcog
hmmm... and you are lucky you play in single player. That delay increase with the ping of everyone.

It is the perfect synch in action. They told me it's a feature not a bug,
you want say we should adopt it
may be your ilu edition better? :)

may be better play with possible (50% chance) desync than with delays even if pings are ok
host freezing, player disconnection also fixed in master version ?
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NoQ
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by NoQ »

cybersphinx wrote:The unit delay comes from having each system execute the same orders at the same time, that means orders are sent over the network, and can only be executed once all systems received them.
Unit delay happens in skirmish as well, so it's most likely partially caused by slow pathfinder.
Per
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by Per »

The pathfinder was changed so that it must complete in some time window before the simulation proceeds, whereas before it used to run in a background thread until it was finished. So before, if path-finding had a backlog, units would wait before starting to move. Now, if there is insufficient time to process path-finding, the entire game will wait. It has to be this way because if path-finding completes faster on some computers than others, the game will go out of sync. (There is a way to design it differently, by doing path-finding only on one computer then sending the results, but that comes at the cost of somewhat larger network bandwidth and latency. There is no free lunch if you want sync.)
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by zany »

Lord Apocalypse wrote:Two theories.
1. Your machine specs
2. QT

I say QT, because QT is not optimized for game use. At least not the drawing functions. I don't know what WZ uses from the QT lib but if this is not the case you may want to be careful of what you DO use out of QT. I've seen plenty of complaints in some of the QT related forums about sluggish response times. I love QT, but i'm leary of using it for game dev beyond tool creation.

On the hardware front.. How many problems does the WZ graphics/shader code have with intel graphics cards?? I know the linux drivers are flaky when it comes to openGL and shader support.
[email protected], EVGA 580 SLI
it is not my machine it is the game.
NoQ wrote:I'm not having many performance problems with master, even on a rather old machine (~8 years at least), so it's hardly Qt, and devs had already replied on "Qt is not for games" somewhere down there, saying "should be fine, we know what we're doing".

The slow unit response - even in skirmish - is a bit annoying though.
it does not look like they know what they are doing. :annoyed:
Reg312 wrote:Discovered bugs:
1) Order delays (slow unit response). This delays better seen on fast units. Every order have small delay.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YP5VIFBcog
2) Cannot insert unit designed for another player in debug mode.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTpbilnFia0
3) Game timer is lost! return the timer!!1
4) Cannot minimize WZ. Cannot return from fullscreen mode (1024x768) to desktop (1280x1024) with alt+Esc
5) VTOLs stuck in buildings while attack by direct orders. It is not happen in patrol mode.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKBXKz2MfD0
agree on those
NoQ wrote:
cybersphinx wrote:The unit delay comes from having each system execute the same orders at the same time, that means orders are sent over the network, and can only be executed once all systems received them.
Unit delay happens in skirmish as well, so it's most likely partially caused by slow pathfinder.
lol a developer don't know about this :roll:
Per wrote:The pathfinder was changed so that it must complete in some time window before the simulation proceeds, whereas before it used to run in a background thread until it was finished. So before, if path-finding had a backlog, units would wait before starting to move. Now, if there is insufficient time to process path-finding, the entire game will wait. It has to be this way because if path-finding completes faster on some computers than others, the game will go out of sync. (There is a way to design it differently, by doing path-finding only on one computer then sending the results, but that comes at the cost of somewhat larger network bandwidth and latency. There is no free lunch if you want sync.)
have you guys even tried playing a 6 or 8 player skirmish game? it is unplayable after a certain point because of all the huge delays. there is no way in hell it is my machine.
how does starcraft or any other RTS game do it if there is no free lunch? this is the only game I have played that keeps on getting worser than the previous version of the game but the developers are blind to this.

continue with 2.3.10, leave this trash version behind.
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NoQ
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by NoQ »

[email protected], EVGA 580 SLI
it is not my machine it is the game.
Oh it's certainly your machine. My machine is ~10 times slower on specs, but the game runs just fine.
it does not look like they know what they are doing.
You don't sound like you know what we were talking about.
Per wrote:Now, if there is insufficient time to process path-finding, the entire game will wait.
Well, what i see is that units don't move until the pathfinding is finished, but the whole simulation still goes on and units die before they move sometimes (regardless of networking, even in skirmish). I still don't see the difference in skirmish when comparing 2.3 and master.

Also, i'm still afraid that ticket #2928 will be left unread because i put a wrong "version:" on it, because the right "version:" was not available :roll:
zany
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by zany »

NoQ wrote:
[email protected], EVGA 580 SLI
it is not my machine it is the game.
Oh it's certainly your machine. My machine is ~10 times slower on specs, but the game runs just fine.
it does not look like they know what they are doing.
You don't sound like you know what we were talking about.
Per wrote:Now, if there is insufficient time to process path-finding, the entire game will wait.
Well, what i see is that units don't move until the pathfinding is finished, but the whole simulation still goes on and units die before they move sometimes (regardless of networking, even in skirmish). I still don't see the difference in skirmish when comparing 2.3 and master.

Also, i'm still afraid that ticket #2928 will be left unread because i put a wrong "version:" on it, because the right "version:" was not available :roll:
stop brown nosing dude you already have your brown nosing tag. :roll:
I can play anything else at more than acceptable frame rates except this game. what does that tell you?
Reg312
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by Reg312 »

Some games work slower on new fast computes and better on old ones

I have delays with following configuration:
i5-2400 3.1GH, WIndows 7
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lav_coyote25
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by lav_coyote25 »

zany wrote: stop brown nosing dude you already have your brown nosing tag. :roll:
I can play anything else at more than acceptable frame rates except this game. what does that tell you?

first off. continue with the flaming and you will reap the reward. second : if you have the solution, let us all in on it. if YOU can not assist with the coding, or any of the other myriad things that need completing. do not offend those that are trying to assist you. you may or may not know that we have only 2 yes 2 devs. and they try their damnedest to make this better , between real life and this - they have no time of their own.. now if your only going to complain - don't bother. we need testers - so do it. and we will all thankyou. have an awesome day. :)
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Re: New master snapshot 20111026 has been released!

Post by stiv »

I can play anything else at more than acceptable frame rates except this game. what does that tell you?
Based on historical evidence, it suggests your video driver sucks at OpenGL.
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