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Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 06 Sep 2010, 18:15
by Deus Siddis
I think the idea of interceptors (AA VTOLs) makes sense but I'm not sure I understand the point behind the new AA weapons with no higher tier replacement weapons mountable on interceptors.

I'd prefer VTOL hurricane, VTOL cyclone, VTOL whirlwind, VTOL AA Laser and even VTOL SAMs for full interceptor weapon diversity on all tiers. (You've renamed some of the rockets before, so no worries adjusting the references to the avenger and vindicator as "SAMs" in the tech description.)

With so many existing AA systems more are not necessarily required.

Also, AA in general is really, really strong in RC3 and before. Especially when you compare it to how poorly ground based defenses stand up to tanks now. Tanks versus hardpoints = win for aggressor, while VTOLs versus hardpoints = win for defender, to put it simply.

Also interceptors would have more of a niche if ground based AA was not so strong.

So here's what I would recommend:

1) Remove new AA weapons for now.
2) Make VTOL versions of all existing AA weapons for interceptors.
3) Weaken ground versions of existing AA weapons.

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 06 Sep 2010, 19:33
by Zarel
Newer version as a mod:
rebalance_0.8.3b1.mod.wz
(7.36 KiB) Downloaded 267 times

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 06 Sep 2010, 20:12
by MetalWarrior95
I think that cyclone should stay...sun burst is an fail...I dont like the idea of pre-early sam system!
Well for flak cannon,its good but i think that there should be an WW2 flank cannon, the german one that was also used in WW1.
A turret with one flak cannon,one round per 1.5 second...like an early version of flak cannon.

Also when there will be naval units? o.0

Also i wish that there were ground transport cyborg vehicle and i wish to make a D-Day wz2100 map but i need ground/naval transport vehicles,maybe like max 2light vehicles or 1 medium vehicle or 8 small cyborgs only or 4 small cyborgs and a light vehicle.

We should upgrade wz in every way because first devs would do that and we know that game devs love to use all aspects that are posible, wz2100 will be more fun but actualy i think that we should remove some original wz weapons because there is too much things. Also when there will be easy to select building/vehicle/weapon research,like we select what we want.

Also i hope that 2.3.5 or 2.3.6 will have gates for multiplayer atleast, because i dont like of an idea of strategy multiplayer part of the game without gates,look at old CnC from 1994/5...Jesus Christ, It had doors,almost all strategy games had doors!gates!

Why WZ2100 dont have gates in multiplayer atleast, Yay !!! x.x

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 06 Sep 2010, 20:18
by KukY
MetalWarrior95 wrote:I think that cyclone should stay...sun burst is an fail...I dont like the idea of pre-early sam system!
Sunburst AA isn't aything even near real SAMs.
MetalWarrior95 wrote:Also i wish that there were ground transport cyborg vehicle and i wish to make a D-Day wz2100 map but i need ground/naval transport vehicles,maybe like max 2light vehicles or 1 medium vehicle or 8 small cyborgs only or 4 small cyborgs and a light vehicle.
Um, you made that wish for like thousands of times.
MetalWarrior95 wrote:We should upgrade wz in every way because first devs would do that and we know that game devs love to use all aspects that are posible, wz2100 will be more fun but actualy i think that we should remove some original wz weapons because there is too much things. Also when there will be easy to select building/vehicle/weapon research,like we select what we want.
It is easy to say, hard to do.
MetalWarrior95 wrote:Also i hope that 2.3.5 or 2.3.6 will have gates for multiplayer atleast, because i dont like of an idea of strategy multiplayer part of the game without gates,look at old CnC from 1994/5...Jesus Christ, It had doors,almost all strategy games had doors!gates!
We already have gates! Try trunk.

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 06 Sep 2010, 20:23
by MetalWarrior95
I tryed but i want in original wz2100...I dont want trunk,i want in original wz2100, i mean in 2.3.5!!

No trunk! 2.3.5!!

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 06 Sep 2010, 20:25
by KukY
MetalWarrior95 wrote:I tryed but i want in original wz2100...I dont want trunk,i want in original wz2100, i mean in 2.3.5!!
Trunk is 'original WZ' as much as 2.3 is. And if you really want original WZ, go play version 1.10 or something like that.

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 06 Sep 2010, 21:59
by Kacen
I think air to air weapons should be specialized; mounting the Flak Cannon or hurricane/whirlwind/cyclone on an aircraft is quite unusual; that is not done IRL.

Anti-Air weapons are not typically designed to be, ironically, mounted on aircraft.

Dogfight weapons are just that.

Really, I've always thought some forward-fixed high ammo capacity machine gun type weapon for a VTOL would be cool in the air-to-air roll.

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 06 Sep 2010, 22:47
by KenAlcock
You know a thought just occured to me. Warzone does not have the most basic of air-to-air weapons. The Aircraft mounted machine gun and cannon. The very first air-to-air weapon was a chain-driven machine gun mounted on the bi-planes of WWI. It would be something of an Assault Cannon watered down. Thus the VTOL Assault cannon and the VTOL Cannon should also be effective for Air-to-air (I do not know one way or the other if they are).

Most WWII era planes had machine guns and cannons that were used for both air-to-air and for ground target strafing.

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 06 Sep 2010, 22:48
by Zarel
Second iteration.
rebalance_0.8.3b2.mod.wz
(7.49 KiB) Downloaded 270 times
Many VTOL weapons have more HP now, and Sunburst/Flak Cannon have been nerfed a bit more.

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 07 Sep 2010, 20:40
by 3drts
Kacen wrote:I think air to air weapons should be specialized; mounting the Flak Cannon or hurricane/whirlwind/cyclone on an aircraft is quite unusual; that is not done IRL.
Anti-Air weapons are not typically designed to be, ironically, mounted on aircraft.
Stinger missile,
Sidewinder/chaparral missile.
20mm hispano cannon
M-61 vulcan cannon
AIM-120 AMRAAM/SLAMRAAM
M2 machine gun (although this wasn't designed as such, it was used as such on a quad mount)

AA weapons that aren't mounted on aircraft, are only not mounted due to weight concerns.
Flak cannons, need to be so big to get enough range, an aircraft can get much closer, and doesn't need the range, and the weight would be a serious drawback (however, oversize rockets carrying similar warheads were used by the Germans, although rockets gave a whole lot fewer shots, each counted for more when fired from an aircraft that could get much closer, and level or above the bombers)

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 07 Sep 2010, 22:10
by MetalWarrior95
Well there should be more ammunitions on vtols because most mgs has so little ammo.There should be an special vtol machine gun.an double 50.cal mgs like in real fighter places with rapid fire and there should be a second weapon and thats rockets!

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 07 Sep 2010, 22:52
by Morphik
MetalWarrior95 wrote:Well there should be more ammunitions on vtols because most mgs has so little ammo.There should be an special vtol machine gun.an double 50.cal mgs like in real fighter places with rapid fire and there should be a second weapon and thats rockets!
You keep asking for changes that will completely change WZ 2100, if you seriously don't like how this game plays maybe you should hop to another.

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 07 Sep 2010, 23:36
by 3drts
hey, back in 2.2 something heavy bodies allowed two turrets
I personally liked my cannon+ lancer Mantis vtols, or my Pulse+ scourge Vengeance... against the computer in skirmish.

Two weapons wouldn't completely change warzone.
A fixed loadout for vtols would.
I predict that if twin weapon loadouts are allowed, people will just double up HEAPS and thermite, of do Plasmite (for a big initial bomb) + heap/thermite for follow up attacks on the same run, and not use MGs+ rockets.

BTW... Twin 50 cals and rockets?
What is this, world war two?
Wait no, in WW 2, twin 50 cals would be underarmed - german planes that had only a twin MG mount would also carry 20mm or 30mm cannons. (me 109, fw 190)

Typhoon/tempest (brit) : quad 20 mm
Mustang B/D 4/6 50 cals
P 38: quad 50 cal, 1 20mm
P47: 8x50 cals
...
the list goes on.
You never find just two machine guns unless accompanied by a heavier cannon.
If you have lighter machine guns, they pack 8 of them (Hurricane).

Or they were obsolete before the war started, like much of the french airforce, and didn't fight in the war for more than a few days.

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 08 Sep 2010, 08:13
by Kacen
3drts wrote:
Stinger missile,
Sidewinder/chaparral missile.
20mm hispano cannon
M-61 vulcan cannon
AIM-120 AMRAAM/SLAMRAAM
M2 machine gun (although this wasn't designed as such, it was used as such on a quad mount)

AA weapons that aren't mounted on aircraft, are only not mounted due to weight concerns.
Flak cannons, need to be so big to get enough range, an aircraft can get much closer, and doesn't need the range, and the weight would be a serious drawback (however, oversize rockets carrying similar warheads were used by the Germans, although rockets gave a whole lot fewer shots, each counted for more when fired from an aircraft that could get much closer, and level or above the bombers)
I meant the mountings. If you say allowed the Hurricane to be mounted on a VTOL it would look /wrong/.

That and I don't know any occurrence of air-to-air flak weapons.

Re: The balance changes in 2.3.5

Posted: 08 Sep 2010, 08:15
by Kacen
Morphik wrote:
MetalWarrior95 wrote:Well there should be more ammunitions on vtols because most mgs has so little ammo.There should be an special vtol machine gun.an double 50.cal mgs like in real fighter places with rapid fire and there should be a second weapon and thats rockets!
You keep asking for changes that will completely change WZ 2100, if you seriously don't like how this game plays maybe you should hop to another.
Actually I partially agree with him. Giving a VTOL an air-to-air or even air-to-ground machine gun with A LOT of ammo, hell even infinite, I would have no objections against.

Even with VTOL machine guns doing more damage than normal ones they're still useless.