Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

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alfred007
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 11 Jun 2018, 01:59

"R-Wpn-Cannon-Damage01": {
"iconID": "IMAGE_RES_WEAPONTECH",
"id": "R-Wpn-Cannon-Damage01",
"msgName": "RES_W_CN_D1",
"name": "HEAT Cannon Shells",
"requiredResearch": [
"R-Wpn-Cannon1Mk1"
],
"researchPoints": 1200,
"researchPower": 37,
"results": [
{
"class": "Weapon",
"filterParameter": "ImpactClass",
"filterValue": "CANNON",
"parameter": "Damage",
"value": 30
},
{
"class": "Weapon",
"filterParameter": "ImpactClass",
"filterValue": "CANNON",
"parameter": "RadiusDamage",
"value": 30

This is a part of the research.json file of the current master version. As you can see the value of the damage upgrade is 30 percent. And this means for a cannon with a damage without any upgrades of 60 any damage upgrade is worth 18 points and not 9 as you calculated.

For the light cannon with a base damage of 30 the upgrade of 9 is correct. In master the medium cannon has a damage without any upgrades of 45. 30 Percent of 45 is 13.5 rounded by the game to 14. 3 x 14 is 42. 45 base damage plus 42 damage upgrade gives 87 like you saw in your test. The base damage of 60 for the medium cannon is the damage in the camBalance mod and not in master. Your calculation remains wrong.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 11 Jun 2018, 02:13

WZ2100ModsFAn wrote:How do i disable all the new tilesets and back to original without game crashing...

i went and modified arizona_enum

arzinonaground

and tertilesc1hwGtype

then it keeps crashing
This is not the right thread for this question. This belongs to "Game related discussion" and there in "Technical Help / Troubleshooting".

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 11 Jun 2018, 03:12

Bethrezen wrote:which oddly enough isn't that far of from the damage values the cannons have after getting 3 upgrades in an unmodified game.

light cannon 57
medium cannon 87
heavy cannon 133
Light cannon. Base damage 30. 3 damage upgrades of 30 percent each (30 x 30% = 9)
3 x 9 = 27
30 + 27 = 57

Medium cannon. Base damage 45. 3 damage upgrades of 30 percent each (45 x 30% = 13.5; rounded by the game to 14)
3 x 14 = 42
45 + 42 = 87

Heavy cannon. Base damage 70. 3 damage upgrades of 30 percent each (70 x 30% = 21)
3 x 21 = 63
70 + 63 = 133

Voilà
Bethrezen wrote:Talking of which i used the let me win cheat to skip to the end of beta and the rate of fire for the light medium and heavy cannons was as follows

light 21
medium19
heavy cannons 17

so that's

21 - 15 = 6
19 - 13 = 6
17 - 12 = 5
The ROF upgrades are using different values and are working in a different way than the damage upgrades. Every ROF upgrade for cannons reduces the firePause by 10 percent. For example for the heavy cannon: firePause without upgrade 60 50 (= 10 12 shots per minute), after one upgrade 54 45 (= 11 13 shots per minute), after two upgrades 48 40 (= 13 15 shots per minute), and after three upgrades 42 35 (= 14 17 shots per minute).and after four upgrades 36 (= 17 shots per minute)

Edit: Ooops, I took the wrong firePause for the heavy cannon. But after three (and not four as I first calculated) ROF upgrades the heavy cannon shoots 17 times per minute. :oops:

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 11 Jun 2018, 04:48

I'll tell you what the stats system could do with a little work, why damage upgrades are a percentage of the base damage instead of just a fixed value i don't know, because a fixed value would be more precise and make the calculations much more straightforward because then you could simply do

base damage + upgrades x rate of fire = damage per minute

as for fire pause i don't know why that isn't just rate of fire so that you can set a value for the rate of fire directly so if you want a rate of fire of say 100 rounds per min then just type a value of 100 that would be much much simpler and more precise as it would allow you to set exactly the value that you want and it would ultimately achieve the same result, it would make the ROF upgrade simpler as well since you could simply add a fixed amount like say 10 points for example.

Come to think of it maybe this is something we should look at fixing since we are rebalancing anyway unless there is some technical reason it can't be simplified.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by WZ2100ModsFAn » 11 Jun 2018, 20:33

Which campaign is mostly stable?

western desert.

urban devastation.

rocky mountain breakdown.
Apologies if i dont see your post
central time usa

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 11 Jun 2018, 21:22

WZ2100ModsFAn wrote:Which campaign is mostly stable?

western desert.

urban devastation.

rocky mountain breakdown.
With the current master version, all campaigns are stable. 3.1.5 is also stable but in gamma 03 you can run into the bug that the nexus transport doesn't leave the map and you can only move on with the "let me win" cheat.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 13 Jun 2018, 20:22

ok so been tinkering about inside excel to see if i can figure this out and I think this should work, hopefully I actually have this right this time.

Light Cannon
Base Damage 26
Rate of Fire 35
Upgrade 7.8

x3 Upgrades 23.4
Damage + Upgrades 49.4

Damage Per Minute 1729

Medium Cannon
Base Damage 50
Rate of Fire 20
Upgrade 15

x3 Upgrades 45
Damage + Upgrades 95

Damage Per Minute 1900

Heavy Cannon
Base Damage 75
Rate of Fire 15
Upgrade 22.5

x3 Upgrades 67.5
Damage + Upgrades 142.5

Damage Per Minute 2137.5

at which point its just a case of adjusting the modifiers appropriately

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 13 Jun 2018, 21:35

These calculations are right, the only thing you have to look for is that the computer rounds a damage of 7.8 to 8 and 22.5 to 23. So the upgrades would be 24 and 69 and not 23.4 and 67.5 but this is a minor thing. I made some tests and think that I now understand how the resulting damage is to calculate. If I'm right it's the following:

(Damage of the weapon - armour of the enemy ) x weaponmodifier x difficultymodifier
Armour of the enemy is base armour plus upgrades

The weapon of the enemy has no relevance for the damage. It doesn't matter if you shoot at a commander or a heavy machine gun tank. The only thing is that a commander has more hitpoints so that it takes more time to destroy him but the damage per bullet is the same.

One example for your calculated damages: NP tank with scorpion body and halftracks, no armour upgrades. Armour = 28; weaponmodifier = 110 %; Insane difficulty modifier = 0.8

Light cannon: 50 - 28 = 22; 22 x 1.1 = 24.2 (rounded by the game to 24); 24 x 0.8 = 19.2 (rounded by the game to 19)
19 x 35 (ROF) = 665 (resulting damage per minute)

Medium cannon: 95-28 = 67; 67 x 1.1 = 73.7 (rounded by the game to 74); 74 x 0.8 = 59.2 (rounded by the game to 59)
59 x 20 (ROF) = 1180 (resulting damage per minute)

Heavy cannon: 144 - 28 = 116; 116 x 1.1 = 127.6 (rounded by the game to 128); 128 x 0.8 = 102.4 (rounded by the game to 102)
102 x 15 = 1530 (resulting damage per minute)

As you can see though the theoretical damage per minute of the light cannon is approximately 80 % of the heavy cannon one, the real resulting damage is 43 % of the heavy cannon one. And this rate will decrease the higher the armour of the enemy is. But if I'm right, it will be no problem to calculate the resulting damage for given values of base damage and ROF or calculating the necessary values for a wanted resulting damage with an excel sheet.

At the end of beta 05 with the current values of the camBalance mod, the heavy cannon deals a damage of 123 per bullet at a tracked tiger body tank and 132 at a tracked panther body tank. Here you have to take care of the upgraded armour of the bodies so that they have a 30 % higher armour than without upgrades. These damages per bullet are good markers when we calculate if suggested values for base damage and rate of fire would make the cannons possibly overpowered in beta mission.

I'm not sure if it's possible to make the light cannon and the medium cannon usable alternatives for the lancer without becoming an overpowered heavy cannon. One way could be to give the light cannon all three damage upgrades back to back and the lancer one or none. After giving the lancer one or two upgrades giving the player the medium cannon and after the lancer got the third upgrade giving the player the heavy cannon. This will be a lot of work to make this with a good balance.

I played alpha 05 with the latest camBalance Mod and I think we should also stagger the mortar damage upgrades. It was too easy to destroy the NP tanks. OK, I used 18 mortars but it felt too easy. I also defined an assembly for the new scavenger factory at the north exit so that these units also attacks the player's units in the middle. But some units get stuck because of all the units that are already in this base. So I'm thinking about to make an assembly at the western exit. Thereby the produced units didn't get stuck but now they would run the western way north to the LZ of the player. What do you think about?

I would also suggest increasing the throttle of the new factory to 24 seconds like the factory in alpha 03 have. I had no problems with them but I think for inexperienced players it could maybe become a problem with a throttle of 18 seconds.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by WZ2100ModsFAn » 13 Jun 2018, 22:35

say did anyone notice this post

https://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12519

it has the original version packed as an installer
Apologies if i dont see your post
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Lord_Kane » 13 Jun 2018, 23:22

WZ2100ModsFAn wrote:say did anyone notice this post

https://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12519

it has the original version packed as an installer
And you brought this up in the thread for 3.2.X campaign testing...why?


Also, Buildbot seems to be down again as the master builds have not been updated since May 26th.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by WZ2100ModsFAn » 13 Jun 2018, 23:32

Lord_Kane wrote:
WZ2100ModsFAn wrote:say did anyone notice this post

https://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12519

it has the original version packed as an installer
And you brought this up in the thread for 3.2.X campaign testing...why?


Also, Buildbot seems to be down again as the master builds have not been updated since May 26th.
i posted it to compare 1.10 to master

terminator had another version of it somewhere here but now its gone
Apologies if i dont see your post
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 13 Jun 2018, 23:48

Lord_Kane wrote:Also, Buildbot seems to be down again as the master builds have not been updated since May 26th.
Buildbot is no longer used for the latest master version for windows systems.
Berserk Cyborg wrote:You can go into the master commits section and there will be green check-marks next to the successful commits. Click the check-mark next to the commit you want and select the details link next to AppVeyor. Then click on artifacts and choose what you want to download.
You will get a zip-file that includes the latest master version for windows.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by WZ2100ModsFAn » 14 Jun 2018, 00:43

why does lassat weapon exist in campaign?

it also is in mp.wz

also is the lassat for nexus to use?
Apologies if i dont see your post
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Lord_Kane » 14 Jun 2018, 01:25

alfred007 wrote:
Lord_Kane wrote:Also, Buildbot seems to be down again as the master builds have not been updated since May 26th.
Buildbot is no longer used for the latest master version for windows systems.
Berserk Cyborg wrote:You can go into the master commits section and there will be green check-marks next to the successful commits. Click the check-mark next to the commit you want and select the details link next to AppVeyor. Then click on artifacts and choose what you want to download.
You will get a zip-file that includes the latest master version for windows.
Awesome thanks, I must have missed that.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 14 Jun 2018, 06:39

WZ2100ModsFAn wrote:say did anyone notice this post

https://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12519

it has the original version packed as an installer
yeah, i already have the original, and have been using it for some time, to help inform decisions about what and how things should change.
As you can see though the theoretical damage per minute of the light cannon is approximately 80 % of the heavy cannon one, the real resulting damage is 43 % of the heavy cannon one. And this rate will decrease the higher the armour of the enemy is. But if I'm right, it will be no problem to calculate the resulting damage for given values of base damage and ROF or calculating the necessary values for a wanted resulting damage with an excel sheet.
Well as I already mention my values where only meant as a starting point, my aim here is for the light cannon to be just a bit stronger then the heavy machine gun where the heavy cannon should have roughly equal damage to the lancer, and obviously the medium cannon somewhere in between

Going this way means players have a truly free choice of which weapon to use since both the lancer and heavy cannon will do the same damage, so the choice comes down to a question of durability vs speed.
At the end of beta 05 with the current values of the camBalance mod, the heavy cannon deals a damage of 123 per bullet at a tracked tiger body tank and 132 at a tracked panther body tank. Here you have to take care of the upgraded armour of the bodies so that they have a 30 % higher armour than without upgrades. These damages per bullet are good markers when we calculate if suggested values for base damage and rate of fire would make the cannons possibly overpowered in beta mission.
I figure that’s something that can be tended to later on, while I get where you are coming from and you are right that we have to consider it or cannons will be to strong in beta for the time being if we can get things to a point where they are good in alpha then in theory they should be fine in beta anyway, but if the balancing is found to be a bit off in beta then there stats can always be tweaked a bit.
I'm not sure if it's possible to make the light cannon and the medium cannon usable alternatives for the lancer without becoming an overpowered heavy cannon. One way could be to give the light cannon all three damage upgrades back to back and the lancer one or none. After giving the lancer one or two upgrades giving the player the medium cannon and after the lancer got the third upgrade giving the player the heavy cannon. This will be a lot of work to make this with a good balance.
Against the collective maybe not but against the new paradigm I would think its quite possible, now when you take in to account the opponents armour the values I posted previously may still be a little weak but the balance between them is fine, as far as the upgrades go I would probably grant just 1 cannon upgrade on alpha 5 with the other 2 coming on the later levels but since my figures are perhaps still a little weak when taking in to account the opponents armour then I figure we have a couple of ways to deal with that increasing the modifiers so they are more effective against targets or slightly turn up the base damage and leave the modifiers alone
I played alpha 05 with the latest camBalance Mod and I think we should also stagger the mortar damage upgrades. It was too easy to destroy the NP tanks. OK, I used 18 mortars but it felt too easy. I also defined an assembly for the new scavenger factory at the north exit so that these units also attacks the player's units in the middle. But some units get stuck because of all the units that are already in this base. So I'm thinking about to make an assembly at the western exit. Thereby the produced units didn't get stuck but now they would run the western way north to the LZ of the player. What do you think about?
Can't say I have played the latest iteration of the cambalance mod yet since weapons still need adjusting, plus I been trying to figure our how best to balance the cannons, since I wanted to try and stay true to the original while at the same time having them more accurately reflect real world equivalents in terms of the rates of fire but also in terms of there effectiveness against different sorts of targets which is why I'd suggested that cannons be switched to a general purpose weapon as apposed to a anti vehicle weapon and I think what I have above in concert with being switched to a general purpose weapon achieves that obviously it will need testing to see how it actually performs because its difficult to get a true sense of its actual performance from the numbers alone, having said that however I suspect that when you take the opponents armour in to account my numbers might still be a little weak and could possibly need buffing a bit, but we'll need to see

As for the scav's coming in from off screen I currently don’t have an opinion as I haven't tested it out yet, although I'm a little puzzled what you mean because if you are talking about having the scav's coming off screen at the point where you get the flashing red marked south of the landing zone they would be moving east not west, so I'm not sure where you are actually intending them to enter from.

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