Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

[alfred007]

I would welcome any ideas about what to do in those situations where the enemy LZ is blocked. I thought we already have the various LZ's blocked, but maybe the area is too small.

I'm not sure what to do. Maybe you should set the LZ's as restricted area, where the player can't build anything like the area where the players transports starts to the away missions. That means, that you can still block the LZ with troops like Bethrezen, but you avoid that a player blocks all LZ's by mistake and can't finish the level. I don't know how big those LZ's has to be that they work, but if they are small enough you can still build some defense structures around it if you want.

[-Philosopher-]

First: Welcome to the testing team Philosopher

Thanks! I've been playing this game for years, so I'm well overdue making a contribution.

So if you think you are exprienced enough please play the game on insane difficulty because we need more input for balancing.

I'm sure I could, but isn't it a good thing if we test it on different difficulty levels? Also, I imagine the balance/challenge should make sense on the default settings first and foremost. I sense we're all pros here, but I'd like to be sure the game stays accessible to new folk too. What do you think?

If I get time I'll do further playthroughs on insane, but I was under the impression that was already well covered off Besides, my primary concern is just making sure the levels aren't broken at this stage - hence focusing on that first.

Alpha 7:
So far I have accounted for if there is already four non-wall structures instead of having to build four more at the start of the mission.

@-Philosopher- It appears that the two saves that do not work only had three transporters land in units. Do you remember if you saved rather early into the mission or shortly after one exited the map and later reloaded? I also find it odd that the transporter kept dropping off on the same location repeatedly since it should change every time.

It could be because he is blocking the landing zones, because I have noticed on alpha 07 that its possible to block the enemy landing zones and force the enemy transports to land where I want them to.

That's right, it's because of the blocked LZ's. And it could be a problem in alpha 10, because he also has a lot of structures in the LZ's for alpha 10. I'm not sure, but I understand the code of alpha 10 that way, that he have to destroy all NP troops after 15 transports. And when the LZ's are blocked because of that structures the NP maybe sends less than 15 transports and the mission is impossible to win.

Can you or @Beserk Cyborg confirm that in my actual saves? I didn't think that was the problem in my case. My suspicion is whatever base I've built isn't sufficient to be recognised - the green dot never disappears from the map. And I have plenty of transports landing. In both examples, I lost count of how many came while waiting for the timer to the end. As I understood it I'd built structures around the LZs, not actually on/blocking them. But I guess it's possible I got too close in some cases. It may be why they kept coming into one LZ only in one of the games?

Re Alpha 10, it was slight overkill but not an actual problem. The transports had no problem coming in on that level either, but the defences killed everything after landing slightly faster than I had been aiming for - so was a bit tight to get all my units recycled and upgraded, but I squeaked in, just

Thanks for the link to the code by the way - I was going to ask. It's a while ago now, but I used to code for a living so hopefully I'll be able to make sense of it.

Anyway pushed master 01b4e298456400cc7c8c6b137e282fae531556ea which should come out in a half hour or so on build bot.

Just downloaded warzone2100-master-20170916-181421-01b4e29 as we speak. Will take a look - thanks!

[-Philosopher-]

Alpha 08
* There are two spots on the map I'd expect to be able to build on but can't - for no obvious reason. See screenshots.

Most likely there is a bit of a slope on that position. Building stuff generally requires having mostly even or flat terrain under it.

Can you check that is indeed the case? It certainly doesn't look like a slope in that location and seems somewhere you should be able to build. I'll also check whether this "dead zone" was present in earlier versions and get back to you too.

So... I happened to have an old version lying around so I played a few levels to see how things worked "back in the day". I've never had the original, but it's 2.3.8 that I had handy.

Turns out those squares you can't build on is an old problem. It's even clearer what's flat and not in the old-school textures, but there's something about 4 squares around the 2nd LZ on Alpha 08 that prevents (and it seems, has always prevented) you from building on them - for no apparent reason:


Looks like a bug to me, albeit not a stage-breaking one. Views?

I also played on to Alpha 10 to see how it used to work with the technologies dependent on the cyborg factory being built. Turns out it's only the cyborg techs. Composite Alloys (and thus the Python body) is unlocked from the start of the stage and isn't dependent on the factory:


Is it possible a bug was since introduced to (incorrectly) make it dependent?

Anyway, wouldn't putting it back to this way be a better fix (truer to the original?) than the one currently implemented?

[alfred007]

@Philosopher

That's right, it's because of the blocked LZ's. And it could be a problem in alpha 10, because he also has a lot of structures in the LZ's for alpha 10. I'm not sure, but I understand the code of alpha 10 that way, that he have to destroy all NP troops after 15 transports. And when the LZ's are blocked because of that structures the NP maybe sends less than 15 transports and the mission is impossible to win.

That was just a suggestion from me, I wasn't sure if it would work or not. As I read you could play alpha 10 without problems so we can ignore my thoughts about having a problem in alpha 10.

[Bethrezen]

That's not completely right. In the old setting alpha 3 was a two part mission. First part building the power module, second part the first away mission to catch the heavy mg artifact. The timer starts now immediately because with the splitting in two parts the player had the choice to milk the mission afk to endless energy and that's like cheating. Now alpha 3 is to build the power module and catch the heavy mg artifact in the away part within 15 minutes. So you have to get prepared during alpha 2 for alpha 3 by placing trucks around your power factories and having your combat squad for alpha 3 ready at your home base. Alpha 4 was and still is the away mission where you catch the mortar and the half-tracked artifact.

Guess that’s a matter of perspective, me I always considered building the power generator part of alpha 02 and the away mission that comes after to be alpha 03.

Although neither perspective is exactly right or wrong, because the interlude between the 2 that is caused by ending alpha 02 without building the power generator is just that an interlude unless its been changed and I just didn’t notice, because I always have the power generator built by the time I'm ready to finish alpha 02 so upon finishing alpha 02 I go straight into the away mission and I never see the interlude.

Now personally to avoid confusion I would recommend having the construction of the power generator as part of alpha 02 since alpha 02 is where you collect the artefact to do that and simply do away with the interlude all together, by making it impossible to end alpha 02 unless you have built the power generator and if you try to end alpha 02 without building the power generator instead of getting the end of level screen and then getting the interlude, you get the vid telling you to build the generator and the timer for alpha 02 keeps ticking.

To be honest I always found the way that was setup to be a bit of an oddity, and never understood why you would ever have that as a part of alpha 03 when you collect the artefact to build the power generator on alpha 02

I would welcome any ideas about what to do in those situations where the enemy LZ is blocked. I thought we already have the various LZ's blocked, but maybe the area is too small.

What about implementing a fail safe measure which will cause the new paradigm drop ships to divert to the first available space if all the drop zones are blocked and simply have them land somewhere else on the map?

I know that’s not exactly an ideal solution, however since this is an emergency fail safe measure it should only be seen if all the drop zones are blocked which would other wise cause the mission to fail.

I tested alpha 8 with master d4d0688 and had more than 19 minutes left after researching python body. I think you can completely cut the extra time for alpha 9 on insane. A player that is experienced enough to play on insane, should be able to complete alpha 8 with 10 minutes left and in that 10 minutes you can produce 17 of the heaviest units you can make in every factory. And if the bug about the vanishing units is fixed he also have the time during alpha 9 to get prepared for alpha 10.

That depends I tried this a couple of different ways and 1 way I was able to get all my units recycled and upgraded and the other way I was only able to get 2 of my squads recycled and upgraded.

Now lets assume that you complete the destruction of the new paradigm base on alpha 08 within the first 20 minutes, which for an experience played should be possible, that would give you 20 minutes to play with upon activating the second drop zone, now to do the research you are looking at about 4 or 5 minutes, give or take which leaves around 15 minutes to recycle and upgrade your troops.

Now if you recycle all your troops before taking off for alpha 08 then you can commence the rebuild process immediately upon finishing the research and if you have 5 factories operating that should be plenty enough time to get the job done.

However if you didn’t recycle your troops before taking off for alpha 08 then you will have to wait for each drop ships of troops to arrive before you can recycle and upgrade them which will make the recycle and upgrade process slower, so for this reason I wouldn't remove the extra time completely and instead I would simply reduce it.

I sense we're all pros here, but I'd like to be sure the game stays accessible to new folk too. What do you think?

This is why me and Alfred often disagree on time limits and the like because when I'm making suggestions for time limits times and such I'm also trying to consider what other players might do, having said that the contrast between the 2 play styles provides a good range see where Alfred seems to favour the fastest method possible me I tend to go with a slower more controlled approach so my suggestions for time limits and such tend to be a little more generous so as to account for differing play styles which might be slower, while I understand where Alfred is coming from and while I do agree that players shouldn’t have excessive amounts of time, I'm also of the opinion that players shouldn't have to rush either, which is usually why we end up somewhere in the middle when there is a disagreement.

Anyway, wouldn't putting it back to this way be a better fix (truer to the original?) than the one currently implemented?

Trouble with doing what you suggest is that you would still be left with the initial problem, in that even if you have built the cyborg factory you wouldn’t be allowed to do the research that depends on the cyborg factor on an away mission because of the required structure condition.

Just like you couldn’t do the composite alloy and python body research on an away mission even though you have already built the tank factory.

So ultimately before you can do anything else the required structure condition needs to be fixed so that code responsible looks at the home map for the required structure instead of the away map.

Untimely until that gets sorted its probably better just to leave things as they are right now, as this fixes the initial issue all be it with some minor unintended side effects, having said that however those side effects are hardly game braking as you would be able to built the cyborg stuff on alpha 10 anyway, don’t get me wrong I agree with you it's not exactly ideal, but I reckon the way it is right now is the lesser of 2 evils.

My suspicion is whatever base I've built isn't sufficient to be recognised - the green dot never disappears from the map.

don't think that's it because if you download my alpha 07 save you will see that the green dot never goes away for me either yet i don't have any problem getting alpha 07 to end, although i haven't actually played your alpha 07 save all the way through yet by the looks of it the issue is that your units are getting to close to the northern landing zone which effectively means that you are blocking all the landing zones and when you do that you wont be able to finish the level because you need to destroy 11 drop ships fill of troops however drop ships wont come if all the landing zones are blocked, I'll need to try playing through your alpha 07 save all the way though to confirm that though.

[edit]

Ok so i just played through your save of alpha 07 and it ended fine for me, what i did was build 2 tank factories 1 repair bay and 4 turrets just as i do on my game and then recycled your units in to mortars and a scanner and then set them up in the same fashion as on my alpha 07 save and then removed the turrets from around the northern drop zone and then just sat back and waited and the level ended just fine for me, and just to make sure there wasn't any difference between normal and insane i reloaded did the same thing again only this time on normal instead of insane and again the level ended just fine.

[-Philosopher-]

So... just confirming these are all good (for me, at least) now:

Testing on Master 01b4e29 (16 Sep 2017)

Alpha 06

-cam1-c: Move the scavDerrickBase cleanup further south to prevent an odd cleanup situation that likely results in one of those bases not eliminating correctly.

Went back to my "Alpha 06-10-2nd Cut Scene" save game, imported from d4d9688, and fought my way south again. Left the map in this state just before destroying the last structure:

Alpha 06-11-New Final-01b4e29.zip

(85.57 KiB) Downloaded 112 times

Stage finished fine this time

Interestingly though, the red dot that corresponds to the central plateau scav base never showed beforehand this time around. I presume you haven't removed it altogether?

Alpha 07

Took the save above, finished Alpha 07, and built a bunch of stuff at the start of Alpha 07 - certainly > 4 structures. See screenshots:


Green dot didn't turn off - which worried me. In previous versions it always used to in order to indicate you'd built enough of a base. Transports dropped all over the place. I was expecting it to time out and fail again... but this time it didn't! So that's good, I guess? No idea what I did differently other than start with a totally blank canvas this time. Here are the corresponding saves anyway:

Alpha 07 01b4e29.zip

(233.85 KiB) Downloaded 101 times

Appreciate there wasn't a fix to address the issue I had previously in the latest change, but this time it was OK. I still don't feel like I know what I need to build here though.

However, as it worked, I tried going back and building a similar base before destroying the final structure on Alpha 06 - i.e. to test:

-cam1-ca: Changed it so that a player does not need to build more stuff if they already have a sufficient amount of structures on the plateau from the previous mission.

Alpha 07 did indeed complete fine - so this tested OK too I guess? I kept the saves if needed.

[Edit]
Except... see my next post...

Alpha 12

-cam1-d: Ignore wall like structures when looking at the total amount of defenses around the New Paradigm LZ.

I picked up from where I left off - see "Alpha 12 V - Upgrades" save. Made a bunch of hover units and headed north to assault the LZ from the sea. It didn't seem to close, so back to the drawing board with this one? Savegames (and screenshot) attached.

Alpha 12.zip

LZ Still not closing?

(1.25 MiB) Downloaded 108 times

Incidentally, there's 10x bombard hover mortar units queued up in the factories with this save, but that doesn't seem to reload properly. Nor does the queued command to recycle the existing 10 mortar units (not sure if it's supposed to remember this or not) - FYI - so both will need some sorting out immediately after loading if you want to transfer the experience from the existing units.

[Edit]
I went back and this time tried destroying all the tank traps before assaulting the LZ proper. Still didn't work. So perhaps not to do with these at all?

[-Philosopher-]

Alpha 7:
So far I have accounted for if there is already four non-wall structures instead of having to build four more at the start of the mission.

@-Philosopher- It appears that the two saves that do not work only had three transporters land in units. Do you remember if you saved rather early into the mission or shortly after one exited the map and later reloaded? I also find it odd that the transporter kept dropping off on the same location repeatedly since it should change every time.

It could be because he is blocking the landing zones, because I have noticed on alpha 07 that its possible to block the enemy landing zones and force the enemy transports to land where I want them to.

So normally I'll place a group of units to the east and west to block those landing areas forcing the new paradigm to land to the north doing that makes the level much more straightforward, the problem though is that its possible to block all the landing zones and if you do that then you aren't going to be able to compete the mission, since you wont be able to meet the requirement of destroying 11 drop ships full of troops since no transports will come.

you can see the effect in my alpha 07 save you don't actuality have to do anything except sit there and wait because the computer will always land to the north and get pounded by my artillery units.

I supposed what I'm doing on alpha 07 could be construed as an exploit but in my opinion its a perfectly fair and valid tactic.

Seems legit, tactics-wise IMO, however...

Out of curiosity, I tried loading up your save game (on the latest master, as it happens - 01b4e29), touched nothing, and left it running. Transports came at regular intervals, the stage timed out... and failed Did I miss something? Did you build more structures in the central base after this save? I think @alfred007 spotted something in the code about it needing 4 or more structures to complete.

[Berserk Cyborg]

Interestingly though, the red dot that corresponds to the central plateau scav base never showed beforehand this time around. I presume you haven't removed it altogether?

Did not remove it so something weird is going on with base detection with that one.

Green dot didn't turn off - which worried me. In previous versions it always used to in order to indicate you'd built enough of a base. Transports dropped all over the place. I was expecting it to time out and fail again... but this time it didn't!

Currently there is no removal procedure for it. I will make it so that it appears/reappears depending on having enough structures on the plateau.

Alpha 12

I picked up from where I left off - see "Alpha 12 V - Upgrades" save. Made a bunch of hover units and headed north to assault the LZ from the sea. It didn't seem to close, so back to the drawing board with this one? Savegames (and screenshot) attached.

It does close though so far enemy reinforcement transports do not automatically remove their radar blips when leaving the map. Easy enough to fix.

[Bethrezen]

Seems legit, tactics-wise IMO, however...

Out of curiosity, I tried loading up your save game (on the latest master, as it happens - 01b4e29), touched nothing, and left it running. Transports came at regular intervals, the stage timed out... and failed Did I miss something? Did you build more structures in the central base after this save? I think @alfred007 spotted something in the code about it needing 4 or more structures to complete.

yeah, you failed to meet the built requirement because you didn't build 4 turrets, see that save was made on a versions which doesn't count stuff built on alpha 06 so in order to meet the build requirement on a version that doesn't count stuff built on alpha 06 ya need to build 4 turrets although with the latest master now counting stuff built on alpha 06 that might be different now so I'll need to update to the latest master and check that out.

try it again but this time build 4 turrets and then leave it running and the level should complete.

[Berserk Cyborg]

So far the green blip for Alpha 7 switches on or off letting the player know they have achieved that part of the victory objective. Blips for the reinforcement transporters automatically remove as soon as the transporter exits the map. Removal of the extra eight minutes from Alpha 9 for insane because of it being already nerfed in regards to factory timers and that the player gets those other tech items in Alpha 8 like they should which is more than enough help for insane difficulty.

Preview here if anyone wants to see the would be changes.

[-Philosopher-]

Interestingly though, the red dot that corresponds to the central plateau scav base never showed beforehand this time around. I presume you haven't removed it altogether?

Did not remove it so something weird is going on with base detection with that one.

I'll play around with the stage some more - see if I can figure out what's happening.

Green dot didn't turn off - which worried me. In previous versions it always used to in order to indicate you'd built enough of a base. Transports dropped all over the place. I was expecting it to time out and fail again... but this time it didn't!

Currently there is no removal procedure for it. I will make it so that it appears/reappears depending on having enough structures on the plateau.

Copy that - thanks. It's how it used to work - and no doubt good UI too. Judging from the (old) discussion about this level I've found, it's one that trips up new folk a lot so anything we can do to help make it more "definite" can only be a good thing.

Alpha 12

I picked up from where I left off - see "Alpha 12 V - Upgrades" save. Made a bunch of hover units and headed north to assault the LZ from the sea. It didn't seem to close, so back to the drawing board with this one? Savegames (and screenshot) attached.

It does close though so far enemy reinforcement transports do not automatically remove their radar blips when leaving the map. Easy enough to fix.

ditto. Plus it makes it consistent with the way LZs work on other stages - e.g. Alpha 06

Did I just not wait long enough by the way - would the red dot have gone away eventually as it was? Anyway, now I know it's OK I'll play on. Happy to wait for the next master in due course

What are your thoughts on my thoughts re. Alpha 03?

[Bethrezen]

What are your thoughts on my thoughts re. Alpha 03?

I don't know how the others feel but personally I'm of the opinion that the most sensible thing to do here is to make the build a power generator one of alpha 02s victory conditions and simply not let the player end alpha 02 until they have done so.

What you can do is give the player the video to build the power generator once they finish researching the power generator artefact and once they have built the power generator and destroyed all enemy units and structures then give them the end of level screen for alpha 02.

That way the player can go striate into the away mission to collect the heavy machine gun artefact, and as long as they have there landing party already assembled at the drop zone before ending alpha 02 the current time limit should be perfectly sufficient, because alpha 03 isn't a difficult mission and can easily be accomplished in 10 minutes if the players takes off right away.

Where the problems start is with regards to the whole issue surrounding the power generator, now given that the stated mission objective of alpha 02 is to investigate the power surge and recover any artefacts and given that one of those artefacts is the artefact for the power generator then it necessary follows that you would then research those artefacts and improve your own base accordingly before continuing, so don’t think it is unreasonable to have build the power generator requirement be part of alpha 02.

certainly this setup makes much more sense than the way it is currently.

[-Philosopher-]

Played through to the end of Alpha 12. No further issues

Just one comment though - it used to be that the stage ended when all the bases were cleared and the LZ closed - i.e. all the red dots removed - only. Now all structures need to be destroyed, which means running around the map and finding all the outliers if you want to finish the stage that way (it's either that or slog all the way back to the LZ now). Not a big deal obviously, but how difficult would it be to put it back to how it used to be?

Anyway on with the beta stages now for me Where's everyone else up to now?

[Bethrezen]

Anyway on with the beta stages now for me Where's everyone else up to now?

just checking out the latest changes for alpha and then I'll just need to complete alpha 12 again, so that i can move on.

[Bethrezen]

ok so updated to the latest master
warzone2100-master-20170916-181421-01b4e29.exe (16-Sep-2017)

Loaded up my alpha 07 save but I'm not seeing the stated changes ??

cam1-ca: Changed it so that a player does not need to build more stuff if they already have a sufficient amount of structures on the plateau from the previous mission.

cam1-ca: Allow the base building blip to switch on and off depending on the amount of structures there are on the plateau.

is it just that you need to make a new save on alpha 07 to see the effect or is it that you haven't pushed the changes yet ?

[edit]

ok just double checked the first change

cam1-ca: Changed it so that a player does not need to build more stuff if they already have a sufficient amount of structures on the plateau from the previous mission.

seems to work but the second one

cam1-ca: Allow the base building blip to switch on and off depending on the amount of structures there are on the plateau.

isn't, i take it you just didn't push that one yet?